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[Shackhal]

Sometimes, Twitter can give me interesting articles. So, i'm posting it here because i'm searching for someone who experienced something like that. Can anyone tell me a story?

This is the webpage: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/08/experience-going-indie.ars

P.S.: Maybe it isn't the right place, but at least the mods can correct it. Thank you

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i think the answer to this is pretty simple: they go indie because they wish for greater control over the games they make. successful indies proving it can be done is probably the "push" a lot of them needed to quit their job and take the plunge themselves

but often i think they find that it's harder than they expected; working in the industry doesn't prepare you to make every aspect of a game yourself and market it too. but sometimes they achieve success (for instance, world of goo was made by two ex-industry people i believe)

[TeeGee]

i think the answer to this is pretty simple: they go indie because they wish for greater control over the games they make.

I would say this is becoming less of a factor compared to quality of life issues. These days most gaming companies require crazy hours, and job security isn't really better than when being indie.

What's interesting, and what is also mentioned in the article, is that few years ago, working on your own games was a nice gateway to the video game industry. Now the roles are reversed - industry experience serves as the gateway to working on your own indie games. If you are good enough, there's really not many reasons to stay on salary.
If this trend continues, AAA industry may find itself without a proper talent pool - working only with people who weren't "good enough" to go indie.

[moi]

A lot if these indies are actually incited by the mother company to become "indie" contractors/freelancers in order to avoid paying taxes OR sometimes just laid off.

[Shackhal]

i think the answer to this is pretty simple: they go indie because they wish for greater control over the games they make. successful indies proving it can be done is probably the "push" a lot of them needed to quit their job and take the plunge themselves

More than have a better control over their games is to set free their creativity and create more games that "gives enjoyment" than "gives money". I think that's why they go indie, for their limitless imagination.

[Klaim]

(for instance, world of goo was made by two ex-industry people i believe)

AFAIK it's one of the result of the 1week experimental prototype dev project done at school by students or something. At least for "goo".

Now I'm not so sure...

[TeeGee]

2d Boy are ex-EA employees.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yeah, both are true. they are two ex-EA employees and it is based on an experimental game they made called tower of goo or something like that; if i recall they made an experimental game every week or every two weeks on the theory that if they make enough of them they'll eventually find one that warrants being turned into a full-fledged game

[moi]

yeah, both are true. they are two ex-EA employees and it is based on an experimental game they made called tower of goo or something like that; if i recall they made an experimental game every week or every two weeks on the theory that if they make enough of them they'll eventually find one that warrants being turned into a full-fledged game

then when it happened, they didn't nothing but remaking and porting and talking about that same game again and again and again...

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

unfortunately that's the key to success: do lots of things until you find one big thing, something that gets popular, and then stick with that one thing and stop being experimental or doing anything else

that's why people leave companies, to do something other than what their company has found to be successful. but that's also pretty much the only way companies can be successful, to stick to popular things

e.g. if i wanted more success, i'd be making immortal defense 2 right now (or more precisely, by now i'd have finished immortal defense 2 and 3 and their DLC packs, and be working on 4). it's what successful indies do: make sequels, expansions, or games very similar to their previous games. look at spiderweb software, or even cliffski/positech

[dcfedor]

Hey all! I was about to start a new topic related to this, but it turns out Shackhal beat me to the punch!

That arstechnica article got me thinking as well, and I wanted to know more about what motivations were driving devs to go indie (as well as what was holding them back). So I created a survey to help gather some statistics. You can see the survey here:

http://gamedevgonerogue.blogspot.com/2011/08/motivations-for-becoming-indie-game.html

I've also shared the results, so people can follow along in real-time:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/viewanalytics?formkey=dC0wSzVuM0VHR0lleGxMYWdqRXRrSVE6MQ

Do give it a look. And pass the word on, if you know of any indies out there who might have missed it!

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

it's interesting that in 67% of cases, "employer owns the rights to anything i produce", even indie games in their spare time, is true. i thought it was less than that

also, as expected, the creative freedom option dominates

[dcfedor]

Yeah, that employee/employer ownership of side projects was definitely an area in debate where I came from. I most employers want employees to feel at home and free to hone their skills in their spare time. But they have a sticky situation with conflict of interest, and ensuring they don't set a dangerous legal precedent. There's not an easy solution, really.

Still, there are some studios (e.g. Double Fine) who are trying novel approaches, and I'm hoping they'll show the world that it's possible.

Also, I find it interesting that so far, those from outside the games industry cite "needing others to help" as a major concern for going indie more often than those within the industry. Does this point to outsiders having less confidence? More complicated ideas for games? Or maybe less game dev friends they think they can turn to?

The survey results are probably too sparse to tell just yet, but there are definitely some trends forming.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

it's a pretty legit concern. most people, especially people coming out of the industry, can't do all the parts of a game well, but only the part they were trained for. the term "programmer art" exists for a reason

[BrianSlipBit]

http://gamedevgonerogue.blogspot.com/2011/08/motivations-for-becoming-indie-game.html

I think you should add one more option, which is: Game industry vet, now employed outside the game industry, working indie on the side.

I think it's a totally valid option.  For now, I just so happen to fall into that category.  Maybe I'm the exception, but I'm too fiscally conservative to just up and quit a decent paying day job to go pure indie.  As much as I'd love to, I understand the realities of this industry and fully know better than to put everything into one basket of blissful indie hopes.

Anyway, just thought I'd toss that out there.

Edit: I believe 5th Cell is also openly supportive of side projects.  In general I think many of the smaller more truly indie studios these days have finally "gotten" it with respect to side projects.  The bigger ones, not a chance--they own it all and it's their way or the highway.

[dcfedor]

Yeah, in retrospect, I didn't adequately provide for part-time indie developers. My bad. There are some "Other" responses in there that I missed as well.

I'm thinking this may be a survey worth re-issuing periodically to compare data across time. I'll have to look into how best to include these new fields such that the data comparison isn't difficult in the next iteration.

Thanks for the tip!

[Richard Kain]

i think the answer to this is pretty simple: they go indie because they wish for greater control over the games they make.

I think Paul nailed it right off the bat. The whole quality-of-life argument isn't significant to experienced game developers going indie. It's a factor as to why experienced developers leave the industry. I've never worked at an indie game studio, but I have worked at an indie graphic design studio. I can tell you now that quality of life is not high for small-time indies. Obviously there are exceptions, but full-time indies have it rough, sometimes even more so than those in the industry.

No, I would say Paul hit it on the head. It's all about getting back creative control, and actually "owning" your creative output. Indie developers get to be their own boss, and guide the direction of their projects. They don't have to worry about the marketing department or upper management making sweeping changes to their efforts based on arbitrary criteria or focus groups. The level of agency fostered in the indie scene is something that the more traditional industry can't compete with.

[TeeGee]

I think that quality of life doesn't matter only to people who never worked in the videogame industry, worked only for a while, or were lucky to be in one of the few companies that don't treat their employees like slaves. After few years of constant crunch, hardly ever getting back home, eating terribly, not getting paid for overtime, and living in constant fear of losing your job, you start to appreciate the indie lifestyle.

Of course, indies don't have it easy either. But working from your home, on your own projects, and being able to sleep and eat well, is much better than spending your life in a dusty office making someone else rich. Creative freedom is very important too, but I wouldn't say that it alone would be a deciding factor.

Notice how in the survey, the people who actually left the industry to become indie marked working hours and work environment to be as important as creative freedom.

[Richard Kain]

I think that quality of life doesn't matter only to people who never worked in the videogame industry, worked only for a while, or were lucky to be in one of the few companies that don't treat their employees like slaves. After few years of constant crunch, hardly ever getting back home, eating terribly, not getting paid for overtime, and living in constant fear of losing your job, you start to appreciate the indie lifestyle.

I'm not saying that quality of life doesn't matter. But I've heard just as many stories of harsh living from the indie crowd as I have from the mainstream employees. Going full-time indie is more often than not just as grueling as working in a big studio. The pay is either much lower, or non-existent. It is often a bohemian existence, another form of being a starving artist.

And perhaps most telling is the fact that a lot of experienced developers don't even bother going indie. It is far more common for them to leave the video game industry entirely, and never return. And generally speaking, this seems to clear up their quality-of-life issues just fine. Anyone with skill enough to rise through the ranks of the video game industry seems to be able to do just fine for themselves in other industries. Video game development expertise, translated into a different context, results in high-paying jobs that don't have ridiculous hours.

If you are a full-time indie developer, it is quite likely that your salary will be very low (or none at all), and you will still need to work ridiculous hours. The fact that you will do most of this from home is little consolation. This is why it is so common for this industry to bleed experienced talent. Quality-of-life is still a big issue for indie developers, especially those who haven't signed on for some kind of financial support.

Obviously, it is different for someone who holds a full or part-time job on the side, and works on game development in the off hours. But such developers can't claim to be full-time indie developers.

[TeeGee]

Yeah, I meant that both are equally important, not that one outweighs the other. Obviously, if it's only about the hours and money, you are better off just leaving the industry at all, as you have pointed out.

Also, I'm an industry vet who went full-indie myself, so I know how it looks. You are right that being indie means lots of work and money problems, but it's still a much nicer life than being in the industry.

You are your own boss, you work on your own projects, from your own house. You work only with people you picked yourself, and if your project succeeds, you get the rewards, not some executive. And while you spend lots of time working on your games, you have that absolutely wonderful flexibility. And man, it makes all the difference.

You would rather go for a walk on a beautiful day instead of coding? Go ahead, you can do your work in the evening. Just staring pointlessly at the screen for hours, too tired to do anything productive? No problem - there's no one to tell you that you still have 4 more hours to sit through. And if you are in the zone and feel like working all night, there's nothing stopping you either. It's not like you have to get up early the next morning, too. A short break for a cinema trip with your girlfriend? Actual dinner instead of a fast-food lunch? Time for workout, hobbies and gaming? Friends offering you a short vacation in their country house together? Sure, just let me pick my laptop.

You still end up working crazy hours, but you do it when you are the most effective, and take breaks when you feel that you need them (or there's just something better to do). Try convincing any boss to allow you for that .