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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamescloning games; minecraft; and terrible people
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DavidCaruso
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« Reply #120 on: September 20, 2011, 06:16:06 PM »

Also, Halo a 'seed' game for FPS?

Dude, didn't you hear in middle school? Halo was the first FPS. Basically, the entire history of video games went like this: Space Invaders (boring!), then Super Mario Bros (bad gfx!), then Pokemon (kiddie!), then Halo. I mean WTF, who the hell would play video games on thier computer? Computer games are just Newgrounds flash games that you play in school.
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leonelc29
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« Reply #121 on: September 20, 2011, 08:16:08 PM »

@Fatso
right, you win.

warning! poorly made-up story ahead!

imagine this: you're a toy designer(job). one day, you create an action-figure(core concept) with original character(your own twist). you sell it, and it's well received and you earn many buck from it. one day, someone wan to earn some quick buck and clone your toy(intentional), with exact design of the character, but with minor twist that doesn't distinct it from your toy. he sell it, for a price that cost only quarter of your price. the clone too, also well received by the public.

in this case, what feeling will you have? will you be sad? or will you be happy and praise that morally bankrupt guy for cloning your stuff? judge for yourself.

if you say Notch is happy and it's okay with the clone, i won't believe it.
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fatso
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« Reply #122 on: September 20, 2011, 08:38:16 PM »

Quote
in this case, what feeling will you have? will you be sad? or will you be happy and praise that morally bankrupt guy for cloning your stuff? judge for yourself.

if you say Notch is happy and it's okay with the clone, i won't believe it.

Then you should ensure that your idea is so good that it would be hard to clone it with the same quality in the first place (not easy). If you create an action-figure (how are games as shallow as action-figures?) that is mediocre, and someone clones it, makes a minor change and suddenly it has better reception, then you should have worked harder at crafting and selling your action-figure in the first place.

Are you trying to say Minecraft clones make Notch sad? Because he's definitely not sad. He probably doesn't care: he made popular a whole generation of 'Minecraft'-like games. You can play Terraria and only Terraria, but if you see Notch in person you know who he is and what he did.
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leonelc29
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« Reply #123 on: September 20, 2011, 08:55:00 PM »

i didn't say Notch is sad with the clone, i've said nothing, nope.

well, i wouldn't try to alter other developer mind, they can think for themselves when this kind of situation arise.
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mirosurabu
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« Reply #124 on: September 20, 2011, 09:16:09 PM »

I often think it's hypocritical of the gaming community to hold such negative opinions of clones, and then applaud someone when they create a slight variation of Mario or Zelda or <insert popular franchise here>. It's the same thing, different developer. If you clone one of those popular series, then you turn around and say "Ninja Fishing is bullshit" just because it's a niche genre and it's happening to one of your own, then you're being a hypocrite.

Mario and Zelda clones tend to be fan games. That's... not the kind of clones we're talking about here.

Ninja Fishing is an "entrepreneur's clone". These guys don't care about making games, they care about making money. They spot a unique game which has no iOS port at the time and then decide to make a same game and optionally add a popular theme (ninjas) and casual art if it's common-sense that it will improve sales. That kind of approach to game design makes me incoherently enraged, disregarding whether it hurts developers or not.

Now, if someone takes existing game and improves it, that's a different sort of cloning, albeit not much better either, especially if what they clone outweighs what they add.

So yeah, I'm not seeing hypocrisy here.
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PompiPompi
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« Reply #125 on: September 20, 2011, 11:36:51 PM »

If you want to use "Money in mind", the only way to seperate people based on that is those who make any amount of money from games and those who make 0 amount of money from games in the past and in the future.

You have clearly misinterpreted a vast and important fraction of my words.
Maybe you misunderstood my intention?
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« Reply #126 on: September 21, 2011, 06:44:24 AM »

If you want to use "Money in mind", the only way to seperate people based on that is those who make any amount of money from games and those who make 0 amount of money from games in the past and in the future.

You have clearly misinterpreted a vast and important fraction of my words.

Maybe you misunderstood my intention?

Hmm. Well, let's get to clarifying.
I never said that attempting to receive money (in whatever form) for a game is a bad thing; rather, money can come about from a game simply designed from the point of view of "I'd like to make THIS GAME and fuck the money". After the game is created, it likely won't make as much money as the same amount of effort put into a game with money more in mind... but there's nothing stopping it from making some.

It seems to me you strongly implied that what I meant by money in mind was selling the game at all. I did not mean that, and I don't think I ever expressed that.


So what was your intention?


Quote from: mirosurabu
if it's common-sense that it will improve sales. That kind of approach to game design makes me incoherently enraged

^ This kind of shit is what makes me incoherently enraged too, just to be clear about what I mean with $$$ in mind. (er, not you mirosurabu. i mean the same thing that you feel is what i feel also.)

Quote from: Leonelc
imagine this: you're a toy designer(job). one day, you create an action-figure(core concept) with original character(your own twist). you sell it, and it's well received and you earn many buck from it. one day, someone wan to earn some quick buck and clone your toy(intentional), with exact design of the character, but with minor twist that doesn't distinct it from your toy. he sell it, for a price that cost only quarter of your price. the clone too, also well received by the public.

in this case, what feeling will you have? will you be sad? or will you be happy and praise that morally bankrupt guy for cloning your stuff? judge for yourself.

Wait! I'm confused as to the goal of your story.

Would anyone be happy with this situation? Is that the whole point? If so, okay. Cool.
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leonelc29
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« Reply #127 on: September 21, 2011, 07:04:34 AM »

 Facepalm

well, the whole point of the poorly make-up stuff i mention early is to ask :if people stole your creation and sell it with only minor twist(which still look the same, play the same) and lower price(like 80% lower), and getting rich and famous with it, what will you feel? rage? happy? either way, it's cool.
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« Reply #128 on: September 21, 2011, 07:30:46 AM »

Quote
Ninja Fishing is an "entrepreneur's clone". These guys don't care about making games, they care about making money. They spot a unique game which has no iOS port at the time and then decide to make a same game and optionally add a popular theme (ninjas) and casual art if it's common-sense that it will improve sales. That kind of approach to game design makes me incoherently enraged, disregarding whether it hurts developers or not.
Yeah, exactly. Games designed exclusively according to marketing principles suck. That's lowest rung of game development imo.
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Headless Man
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« Reply #129 on: September 21, 2011, 07:35:27 AM »

Also, Halo a 'seed' game for FPS?

It massively influenced a ton of games that came after, so sure.  One of several 'seeds' along the way.
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droqen
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« Reply #130 on: September 21, 2011, 07:38:56 AM »

Facepalm

well, the whole point of the poorly make-up stuff i mention early is to ask :if people stole your creation and sell it with only minor twist(which still look the same, play the same) and lower price(like 80% lower), and getting rich and famous with it, what will you feel? rage? happy? either way, it's cool.

I'm not sure why the lowered price is a part of this:

The design was, clearly, stolen, and that's just not right.
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Headless Man
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« Reply #131 on: September 21, 2011, 07:44:32 AM »

I feel real bad for the Crush the Castle guys.  Rovio can eat a dick, improving or no.

EDIT:  Haha, looks like CtC was a clone of Castle Clout.  Did not know that.  They asked if they could clone it though.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 07:50:17 AM by Headless Man » Logged
PompiPompi
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« Reply #132 on: September 21, 2011, 10:33:20 AM »

Droqen, I know you didn't mean that. What I thought you ment is, regardless whether the game makes money or not it's the thought or state of mind of "I make this game for money" or "I make this game for the sake of making a good game" that counts.
Correct me if I am wrong.
If that is what you ment, what I ment is that this is a very unreliable way to tell if a person is a "true" developer or just one who grabs money.
It's like some sort of artificial barrier between the game developers you like and the game developers you don't like.
You don't like those FortressCraft guys for an unproven reason. You claim they did this game not because they like making games, not because they wanted to make a good game, but only because they saw a cash cow and wanted part of it.
Yet, Notch is somehow this developer with belevolent motives and he makes games because he really like to make games.
I claim is that as long as both make money out of their games, you can't really say who is doing it only from a business side and with only money in mind, and who is a doing this because of love of gaming or whatever.
I calim, Notch isn't better than FortressCraft guys, at least not for the reason you mentioned.
The only way someone can prove to others and to himself that he makes a game because he likes making games, is to don't have any kind of profit from the game. This is also hard, because sometimes developers make free games to promote themselves.
I didn't think you ment it's bad to make money, I think that judging a game developer by what are his true intentions\thoughts\feelings\whatever about game creation, is wrong and misleading.
It is more likely a tool to use against people you don't like, for whatever reason and to glorify those you do like.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 10:40:12 AM by PompiPompi » Logged

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« Reply #133 on: September 22, 2011, 05:04:08 AM »

Facepalm

well, the whole point of the poorly make-up stuff i mention early is to ask :if people stole your creation and sell it with only minor twist(which still look the same, play the same) and lower price(like 80% lower), and getting rich and famous with it, what will you feel? rage? happy? either way, it's cool.

It's funny you mention this, because the project that first got me into gamedev happened to be a Street Fighter/Fatal Fury fangame made on a hacked-together, barely-there DOS remake of the SF2CE engine. This was back in '94-'96, back when CD-ROMs were optional PC components, USB was practically nonexistent, and 56k was HIGH-SPEED internet. It had ugly lifebars/superbars and ran a whopping 20-25 FPS, but was it fun!

Back then, P1 and P2's move sequences were coded seperately, and a small group of buddies - a programmer, a guy that's good with BG's, a sprite-ripper, some MIDI files and very basic SFX, and another guy and I who did character script encoding, basically hacked 6 Fatal Fury Special characters into SF2. We then later modified the select screen for 8 of each side. Players could hold select to choose the P2 variation of the movesets, which were specifically altered for different versions of the characters (specifically like the then-godly KoF '96 or SFA/Super Turbo or just some other weird variant of them) although we never did get the pallete thing working right; second colors meant second entire spritesheets back then.

Well, low and behold, 1999 comes around with the profound launch of Capcom vs. SNK. A version that focuses very heavily on Fatal Fury 2 and Street Fighter 2 characters in particular. And check out this other nifty thing; there's "EX characters" with these alternate movesets. ^.^'

My feelings of being in that boat personally, are kinda mixed. I mean, I wish our efforts were more fruitful, or at least considered relevant experience professionally. So there's a little disappointment in that. But then, it was a fangame based on THEIR games and characters in the first place... so they're actually entitled to doing what they did. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, or so they say; and the fact that something a group of then-mostly-teens-including-me did went on to become a major-selling blockbuster - that's a pretty stellar feeling if I do say so myself. And I do.

If nothing else, it goes to show that I can design and script on a superpro level. Now I just need to get the rest of the package in gear. Or at least a level of reasonably-competent. Just gotta remind myself - it only looks like a lot of work until it's actually done.

EDIT: BY THE WAY, THE GAME WAS FREEWARE, NOT SOLD.
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mirosurabu
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« Reply #134 on: September 22, 2011, 05:16:47 AM »

Quote from: Pompi
I claim is that as long as both make money out of their games, you can't really say who is doing it only from a business side and with only money in mind, and who is a doing this because of love of gaming or whatever.
[...]
It is more likely a tool to use against people you don't like, for whatever reason and to glorify those you do like.

You can. Just by talking to all the different developers, you can learn all the different approaches to game design, and then you can see all the different "tells" that are specific to all the different approaches. Using this knowledge you can then spot 'tells' in other games and see through development process.

Of course, the level of certainty will vary from game to game, but at times you can safely accuse people for being too business-oriented. I have no opinion on FortressCraft, but I can easily tell that Gamenauts are business guys who really only care about running a business.
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leonelc29
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« Reply #135 on: September 22, 2011, 05:34:31 AM »

@baconman
i don't know is it fair or not in that case, since it's like i-steal-your-art-you-steal-my-design stuff. i don't know, you might be in the different case though.
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« Reply #136 on: September 22, 2011, 05:49:53 AM »

Quote from: Pompi
I claim is that as long as both make money out of their games, you can't really say who is doing it only from a business side and with only money in mind, and who is a doing this because of love of gaming or whatever.
[...]
It is more likely a tool to use against people you don't like, for whatever reason and to glorify those you do like.

You can. Just by talking to all the different developers, you can learn all the different approaches to game design, and then you can see all the different "tells" that are specific to all the different approaches. Using this knowledge you can then spot 'tells' in other games and see through development process.

Of course, the level of certainty will vary from game to game, but at times you can safely accuse people for being too business-oriented. I have no opinion on FortressCraft, but I can easily tell that Gamenauts are business guys who really only care about running a business.

I really doubt you can tell.
Maybe foul mouthed, arrogant developers who mock the indie scene and love money have more passion for games than that nice friendly guy, who cherish the indie spirit and give interviews with his other indie friends about aspects of design and etc but didn't really work on his own game for a while. While others did for him.

I am not convinced you can tell who "only cares about the money" and who has "the indie spirit".
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« Reply #137 on: September 22, 2011, 06:37:51 AM »

Quote from: PompiPompi
Notch is somehow this developer with belevolent motives

hee hee. I never said that, and I'm not going to. He seems nice and fine to me, but I don't really have any strong opinions on, uh, who he is.

I didn't think you ment it's bad to make money, I think that judging a game developer by what are his true intentions\thoughts\feelings\whatever about game creation, is wrong and misleading.
It is more likely a tool to use against people you don't like, for whatever reason and to glorify those you do like.

This is a very interesting point -- I don't agree with the first part, but I think the second is important. I'm definitely not trying to scapegoat here and I'm a little terrified I might be, to be honest.

The FortressCraft developers are doing something that I would never do outside of for its monetary merits (which means I wouldn't do it) but maybe it's really just what they wanted to do! There are many things I'd rather not do as they'd have to start off being a valueless clone; my loss? Maybe.

Quote from: PompiPompi
I am not convinced you can tell who "only cares about the money" and who has "the indie spirit".

You can often tell from statements. You can't always, and conclusions should never be drawn too soon (even though they always are).

Still concerned about scapegoating, I'd like to point out that as a desired quality it doesn't matter if it's measurable. If we admit that there's sometimes no way to be sure, how then do you feel about that feature?

I think you're very concerned about the actual outcome of holding such an opinion (which is, granted, probably the most important part) while I've been blindly chasing the simple, well, moral of it I suppose.


Oh, last thing:

Quote from: PompiPompi
Maybe foul mouthed, arrogant developers who mock the indie scene and love money have more passion for games than that nice friendly guy, who cherish the indie spirit and give interviews with his other indie friends about aspects of design and etc but didn't really work on his own game for a while. While others did for him.

I have no doubt.
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mirosurabu
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« Reply #138 on: September 22, 2011, 10:47:25 AM »

I really doubt you can tell.
Maybe foul mouthed, arrogant developers who mock the indie scene and love money have more passion for games than that nice friendly guy, who cherish the indie spirit and give interviews with his other indie friends about aspects of design and etc but didn't really work on his own game for a while. While others did for him.

I am not convinced you can tell who "only cares about the money" and who has "the indie spirit".

That's up to you. My suggestion is to talk to various developers or at least listen to what they have to say. Then, this would make better sense.

Arrogance and friendliness have little to do with it though. Lots of passionate people are accused for being arrogant and lots of friendly people only really care about making contacts.

And I'm not talking about "indie spirit", just passion in general. I'm also not claiming that people who love money can't love games. That's stupid.

My point is that you can tell when people really only care about money.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #139 on: September 22, 2011, 12:15:20 PM »

I still do't get Fortresscraft was about money. The game was release on XBLIG a platform notorious for sales that can't sustain a dev, the FC dev himself believe it would not sustain him even after the great start because it was still below decent money. Now the game might have break even, but it doesn't look like it was because of chasing money. It does not make any sense.
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