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[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I think it's accurate except that you aren't placing any blame on the students themselves, and attributing their failure entirely to external factors. Which is true to some degree, but it's also true that a lot of people are basically lazy and don't want to put in the effort it takes to learn game development through making their own games. In other words, a lot of people like the idea of making a game, and want to have made a game, but don't like the actual process of making a game.

[Hinchy]

so I want to go to college for game programming or design. i already have a few things under my belt. is this all of a sudden not a good idea? are there any good "game schools" at all?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Truthfully I think a better idea is just to get a good general education and teach yourself game design on your own. Major in something that will give you a good grounding in general knowledge -- I majored in biochemistry, but I took all kinds of courses outside of my major. Some things can be taught well in college, some things can't, so it's best to learn the things that can be taught well and leave the things that can't for self-discovery.

Majoring in art, programming, music, writing, etc. would be far better than majoring in game design, because they'll at least give you one of the core skills necessary to make a game. So depending on which part of game development you find most interesting (the story, the technical aspects, the music, or the graphics) going with one of those might be a better idea.

Another thing is that don't expect being a good programmer makes you a good game designer, the skills are distinct. Typically what you find in game communities is the complete opposite: in my experience the best indie games come out of people who are competent but not excellent programmers. Excellent programmers on the other hand often get too caught up in the technical aspects and make "tech demos" rather than games.

[Farmergnome]

For most part game designers are a fluff position, its a smart way for most people who cant code, draw or compose to get daddy to pay for game school so they can strut there game designer status.

that being said, designers who know, or understand, code n art pipelines n how to make games are awesumstuffs, though hard to find in the sea of brain dead retarded masses.

[muku]

Majoring in art, programming, music, writing, etc.

Or math. Don't forget about math.

[increpare]

Majoring in art, programming, music, writing, etc.

Or math. Don't forget about math.

He must have assumed that was a given

[muku]

Majoring in art, programming, music, writing, etc.

Or math. Don't forget about math.

He must have assumed that was a given

Hopefully 

But for a more serious question, let's assume someone already had good skills in at least one relevant area such as programming, art etc, but had no idea how to design a good game. Could such a school then help them to learn that specific aspect, or is it something that can't be learned anyhow? That you either have or you don't?

It's not that I consider going to such a school, I'm just curious. Although I am in the position that I think I am a pretty competent programmer, but I can rarely think of an original game idea, and when I do, I find it very hard to formulate the idea into an actual concept for a game. It's pretty frustrating.

[agj]

I think the main problem is that game studies, as a discipline, have not evolved far enough, so schools and their classes are hit or miss. Or at least this is what I can gather as an outsider. What is always true is that your own motivation and will to research and experiment is what will decide whether you become competent at game design or not. Becoming a good game disigner, as with anything else in life, depends on the work you put behind it; if you, muku, already have a relevant skill for the game-making process (programming,) then I suggest you find some books and read away. Especially with videogames, young as they are, gathering knowledge from different fields will enrich your creations much more than if you stay too focused on games, so don't be shy to investigate whatever you think might even be tangentially relevant. Radically different perspectives have always nourished every sphere of knowledge.

[muku]

...then I suggest you find some books and read away.

Hm. Do you have any literature in particular in mind with that statement? I'm a bit of a theory person myself, tending to go a lot into the theory of whatever interests me and overanalyze stuff, and I think that's a certain danger in and of itself, because at some point you just have to stop thinking and actually do something. So I think this is kind of a dangerous route for me. Actually this community here is the first thing in a long, long time that has given me so many ideas that I just had to buckle down and start something, and now I have three projects going on at once, and of course its completely overwhelming, but I love it. It's much better than the void I felt before...

[medieval]

Character plays a role.

[Tatsu]

I mentioned that I went to one of those "gaming schools," and I have to agree with most of what was recently said. Getting a more general degree is most certainly a good idea simply because it opens more doors for you. As one example, you can make games (either for a big company or independently) just fine with a software engineering degree, but good luck getting a high paying general programming job with a degree in game design.

With that said, good game design technique is absolutely something that is learned and refined through practice; it is not something that you "have or you don't." Some people are more naturally creative with game concepts, just as someone can be very creative with music or art, but the distinction between creativity and good technique is an important one. There's a sticky in this forum ("Art, Music, and Design Resources") with some good design theory resources, and there are some excellent articles on Gamasutra.com and Gamedev.net. Although, "good game design" in general has yet to be defined in technical terms, and I think that's why there aren't any good all-encompassing books on game design yet. Broad game design books I've come across are incredibly subjective. Maybe someone else has had better luck?

Back at college, design theory classes were a mixed bag, and for the most part a huge disappointment. I enjoyed level design theory, and learned some things that I was able to apply to my own games (like tips on properly adding multiple paths and balancing risk vs reward). On the other hand, the AI theory class was an absolute joke. In that class we mostly talked about the Roomba (vacuum robot), and I remember an especially embarrassing presentation when the professor was writing a script in Neverwinter Nights and described how you had to write "AI" so a treasure chest knows what items it contains. The final for this class was to write an AI flowchart; instead, I created a complicated set of AI routines for a drunken fighting/frisbee game I was working on at the time. I learned a lot and had a lot of fun doing that, but I had to go far beyond what the class asked of us. Theory without practice is pretty useless, after all.

To sum up my point, I'd say it's incredibly important to put what you're learning into practice, but this doesn't always mean that programming is necessary. There are countless games with level editors in which you can practice level design theory, and other games where you can alter the graphics with your own animations, all without touching a single line of code. But if you're interested in something that's directly based around the logic of the game (like how the game handles, or how enemies react...) then some level of programming should definitely be learned. There are a lot of tools out there that make it easy to jump into programming at any level, so you don't always have to start by learning how to create and display a window.

[agj]

As mentioned by Tatsu, gamedev.net has a lot of resources, even a list of relevant books, though, as he also warned, most are very subjective, so you won't find a book that covers everything, and you should not read them like they're the law.

Also some good blogs:

http://onlyagame.typepad.com/
http://www.raphkoster.com/
http://www.gameology.org/

If you told me something specific you're looking for, muku, I could recommend something specific for you too.

[muku]

Thanks for the pointers, people. Whoah, that game design section on gamedev.net is overwhelmingly huge, I really need more time (as always, the biggest problem...) to dig into that.

I find it difficult to say specifically what I'm looking for; frankly, I don't know myself. But hopefully these articles and blogs will get me started and give me a clearer idea of what I'm doing.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I'm not sure about math. Most games don't require any math more complex than algebra, or sometimes trig, which (I hope) most people get in high school. Creating a 3D engine of course uses higher math, but most game designers who never create their own 3D engine. I'm not saying it's impossible to be a good game designer if you major in math or anything, I just don't see the connection, it seems only tangentially relevant, like majoring in anthropology (because games are creations of man and part of his culture) or psychology (because games deal with the human mind).

[Movius]

Programming IS maths and you're not going to make a game without programming (unless you plan on magically conjuring a game out of the aether , which I hear is all the rage.) So you're going to need some grasp of mathematics, IT degrees generally offer discrete mathematics courses that are a good start.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Sure, you need a good grasp of mathematics, but that was my point. But do you really need discrete math? Do you really need anything beyond algebra? Most games never use anything that complicated. I've made a dozen games or so, and never once did I use anything beyond trig.

[PenguinHat]

Programming IS maths and you're not going to make a game without programming (unless you plan on magically conjuring a game out of the aether , which I hear is all the rage.) So you're going to need some grasp of mathematics, IT degrees generally offer discrete mathematics courses that are a good start.

You could always make a board or other table top game instead of a video game.

[muku]

Sure, you need a good grasp of mathematics, but that was my point. But do you really need discrete math? Do you really need anything beyond algebra? Most games never use anything that complicated. I've made a dozen games or so, and never once did I use anything beyond trig.

I think that's highly subjective and depends a lot on what kind of game you want to make. Certainly there are lots of games you can make with only basic algebra and trigonometric knowledge. But I think a good knowledge of math expands the horizon of what you can technically tackle, and might even give you ideas for novel concepts.

As soon as you want to do anything in 3D, you need quite a lot of math. Even in 2D, if you want to move beyond purely sprite-based graphics, you are going to need math. If you want to do good AI, you are going to need math. If you want to base your game on a simulation, you need math. If you want to incorporate any kind of physics, you need math.

The list goes on. Besides, studying math teaches you lots of valuable meta-skills in areas like problem solving, structured thinking etc.

Even many indie games rely heavily on more advanced concepts. Look at all the physics-based games, or look at Dwarf Fortress. I mean Tarn Adams was a math prof before he quit to work fulltime on DF, and the amount of algorithmic complexity in that game boggles the mind.

Sorry for the rant, I just might have completely derailed the thread. I'm biased about this topic, obviously...

[increpare]

like majoring in anthropology (because games are creations of man and part of his culture) or psychology (because games deal with the human mind).

Well I think these subjects might be very good indeed for game designers to be familiar with, and not just for awareness of the position of video games within society.  A psychologist might quite likely be able to contribute a lot of AI-related ideas, and an anthropologist, well, they sure know a lot about cultures; pretty sure there's plenty of inspiration to be got from those... .

Most of my games have involved a good bit of discrete maths (graphs/trees/path-finding/&c.).  But how important is it for an average game-designer to be aware of this stuff?  (I don't know, for one. I'd like to think that it's an advantage in some sense).  If one has ambitious plans, knowing how to break it up into manageable parts will involve a knowledge of the techniques that will go into the making of the game.  Also, there are some ideas that simply require a lot of technical prowess to realize (take Love, for instance), and without technical backing, the basic design ideas ('make the 3d artwork look like an illustration') can seem a bit insubstantial.

and might even give you ideas for novel concepts.

Indeed.  But in this role, it's probably no more necessary than, say, a knowledge of literature.

[cmspice]

Being a math major with focus in programming, the two are pretty different to me. I don't think good programming really needs much math. Though if you're good at math, you'll probably be good at programming and vica versa. For me, I tend to think they work the same part of my brain in unrelated ways.

Put in context, lets consider this 2d game engine I'm working on. I've made use of a very created graph structure to hold all my frames. I have multiple levels of inheritance under the abstract base class "object" to organize everything that appears on screen and their behaviors. I have a solid routine that renders each frame and updates the sprites. These are all programming classes that do not involve math.

And what of my engine involves math? My current hit detection engine which... checks if one bound is lower/higher than the other. And then my coordinate system which does one substraction to determine screen coordinates.

Coming from a seriously math oriented perspective, the most complicated game designs I can conceive really wouldn't need much more than the basics of linear algebra (which is fairly common sense)

Which is funny that I would be a math major and yet my interests are seriously involved in game design. That's because I believe everything must be learned from PRACTICE. And that practice in one field will aid you in another field. DOING a single math problem is worth more than a thousand game ideas.

As for the wananbes, I think the simple solution is to sit them in front of a computer and tell them their grade depends on an ORIGINAL GAME of their own creation. They would be responsible for art, music and programming. That should sift out everyone who can and can't handle game development. With tools like GM, being unable to program isn't an excuse and seeing games made by people like cactus or messhof, being unable to draw is no excuse not to be able to make an AWESOME looking game.