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[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

he probably didn't want to animate the picking up a box animation

[DavidCaruso]

The guy can't even pick up a box?

This is a story expressive ~50%-interactual gamespace about the life of a game developer who spends all his time in MMO raids, to the point where his girlfriend walks out on him because he won't get her pregnant, and then he walks out the door into his subconscious (aka drugs). Make the appropriate conclusions about muscle dystrophy. My interpretation of this is that, off camera, he took a few shots and gained the strength to open the boxes of his childhood memories, but then the bad drug trip started and images of his half-naked father started appearing.

EDIT: Jesus christ, I just realized that the name of the main character ingame is also the name of the developer. I guess this actually is an autobiographical work then?

[Theophilus]

You should change the topic title to "- about pedophilia" and not "explores pedophilia". Some may get the wrong impression.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

EDIT: Jesus christ, I just realized that the name of the main character ingame is also the name of the developer. I guess this actually is an autobiographical work then?

i thought that was pretty clear from the website; i knew that before even playing it (e.g. 35 minutes ago)

but it's interesting that you say it has his naked father in it. i expected it'd be about the temptations of pedophilia to the character, not abuse of him when he was a kid. but i suppose it makes more sense this way: it's much more likely for someone to admit they were abused when they were a kid than to admit they want to abuse kids

[moi]

Is it like that movie where clint Eastwood explores new orleans nightlife?
Someone should make an art game about that

[s0]

In the old days we called this allegory, still in use in Japanese game but totally oblivion to western dev for some reason.

It's because all non-literal storytelling is pretentious, gay and for hipster artfags, didn't you get the memo? The Bible was probably written by some guy with thick rimmed glasses and a mustache while listening to a custom playlist of  Death Cab For Cutie and Arcade Fire songs on his iPhone(tm).

[gimymblert]

Also anything about pedophilia need to at least hold against Nabokov's Lolita. And even then they will still look like as awkward attempt to cash in the modern trend of fear surrounding the recent focus on such case, and a silly attempts to tackle deep issue without the necessary cultural baggage.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

that's "icycalm-speak" -- i don't think that's true: you don't need to match the greatest things in history for something to be worthwhile. your platformer doesn't need to be better than super mario 3 for it to be worth making, your novel doesn't have to be better than crime and punishment to be worth writing, etc.

i think people judge art games by too high of a standard compared to other genres. an average platformer posted on the forums gets praised, but an average art game gets ridiculed

[[RM8]]

I think an average platformer is much better than an average art game. Probably because platformers are easier to make, and stick to tried-and-true formulas.

[DavidCaruso]

that's "icycalm-speak" -- i don't think that's true: you don't need to match the greatest things in history for something to be worthwhile. your platformer doesn't need to be better than super mario 3 for it to be worth making, your novel doesn't have to be better than crime and punishment to be worth writing, etc.

'course, and if he'd ever said anything like that it would have been wrong. Luckily for him he didn't, and just said that people should just keep making the games they're making if they like doing that, and that his role here is simply to judge their games on the same criteria as any other (and, in the process, debunk dumb myths about "art," "creative freedom," etc.)

i think people judge art games by too high of a standard compared to other genres. an average platformer posted on the forums gets praised, but an average art game gets ridiculed

I judge "art games" by the same standard as I judge all other games. Is this too high of a standard? If it is, do you realize you're basically admitting that these games are so bad that they actually need that "boost?"

The average "art game" (which, almost all of the time, is really just a basic adventure game or some other easily classified game that has certain aesthetic quirks) is usually worse than the average "regular game" (and in fact an "art game" is a "regular game," there is no actual distinction between the two categories and "art games" are not a genre.) The "art game" in this topic is really just an adventure game like any other except with more rudimentary puzzles and worse writing (though part of that might be due to translation), and should be judged as a basic adventure game with rudimentary puzzles and bad writing.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i don't really think it's possible to judge all games by the same standard. i don't judge strategy games by the same standards as puzzle games, etc., and i don't think anyone does

having the same standards to judge all games also seems to ignore the game's intentions. i think whether a game achieves what it's going for is more important than whether it's better than some other game

i agree that this game should be judged by adventure game standards too though, since it's an adventure game. and that's the standards i judged it by in my earlier post (where i said it wasn't bad as an AVS adventure game, but not as good as the best AVS games i've played)

[gimymblert]

that's "icycalm-speak" -- i don't think that's true: you don't need to match the greatest things in history for something to be worthwhile. your platformer doesn't need to be better than super mario 3 for it to be worth making, your novel doesn't have to be better than crime and punishment to be worth writing, etc.

i think people judge art games by too high of a standard compared to other genres. an average platformer posted on the forums gets praised, but an average art game gets ridiculed

It's more the attempt at "deepness" rather than genuine expression. If you start to namedrop you potentially start to fail at being genuine.


@Caruso
It's not that artgame should be treat like regular game they are not (ie no focus on fun), but they generally fail by being too literal or illustrative with the gameplay. Most of the time the gameplay is like a redundant telling of the theme instead of complementing it (unlike marriage) or it work like a leading editing process (everyday the same dream) or is purely illustrative and unnecessary.

The quality of the content is generally irrelevant as it fall in other sphere of criticism (not gameplay).

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

if you guys think you can do so much better why don't you make an art game that doesn't suck? hahaha

anyway i didn't really see any namedropping in the game but i didn't get that far in it. i do think it's a bit weird to call it 'not genuine' if it's autobiographical -- about his real life and real experiences -- you can't really get more genuine than that

[s0]

i have no qualms with the concept of "art games" (bad name, whatever), it's just that the vast majority of them are seriously lacking in execution. they try to be "serious," "profound," "sophisticated" etc. but rarely go beyond the level of bad internet emo poetry and end up being really hamfisted and unsubtle with their themes and "messages." probably because seriousness and profundity are not exactly the strengths of the average gamer nerd (not excluding myself here!)

[Zaphos]

i agree that this game should be judged by adventure game standards too though, since it's an adventure game. and that's the standards i judged it by in my earlier post (where i said it wasn't bad as an AVS adventure game, but not as good as the best AVS games i've played)

Do you mean AGS?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yeah i confuse that engine name a lot -- i mean 'adventure game studio'

[gimymblert]

Actually the best Art game are mainstream game so far: I will name silent hill 2 obviously and less obviously final fantasy crystal chronicle GC. But the problem is that they are still at odd with gameplay and expectation, silent hill 2 is first and foremost a zombie killing game with thematic cherry, the same with final fantasy except the tired theme of memory, bonding and life is overdone in JRPG (just J in general) and the childish gamey setting does not help people picking the subtleties despite the great use of allegory and thoughtful reflexion.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i haven't played either of those games, but i know the types of games that you mean -- for the games with the highest artistic value that i've played have been games like alpha centauri, planescape torment, xenogears, kartia, etc. -- but usually the artistic value in those games are in the stories, not the mechanics (with the exception of alpha centauri). art games like gravitation, idealism, coil, opera omnia, the marriage, where we remain, etc., are games that attempt art using the mechanics rather than the story, which is largely new territory

[s0]

Opera Omnia was good.

[gimymblert]

Actually not all these game have the artistic value ONLY in the story, also in some gameplay elements. But strip of gameplay filler they would be indistinguishable from other artgames. Silenthill 2 carefully monitor your decision to branch its narrative (action like looking too long at a knife), FFCC GC would be like everyday the same dream with some passage added within it.

Also game that could support artistic achievement through regular gameplay have lame artistic achievement.