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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralIGF Thread 2012
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #1100 on: February 23, 2012, 04:49:13 PM »

so my thought was: perhaps by making the remake of closure to suit the igf, you made it more "casual" than the flash game? easier puzzles for instance. fewer points where the player can get stuck. more clues and prompts. decisions which might not suit people who were used to the flash version and wanted the same game but more challenges, variety, and puzzle elements, instead decisions which suited people who would just go on to their next game without missing a beat if your game bored them for a few moments

Alright
1. not easier, its EXTREMELY WAY FUCKING HARDER (towards the end), but that can be done FAIRLY now because it teaches the mechanics better and mechanics are far more clear and consistent

2. no clues and no prompts, we removed all text from in-game

3. "people who were used to the flash version and wanted the same game but more challenges, variety, and puzzle elements" that's exactly what the new version is...

none of the decisions made were "well we have to sacrifice so the masses would get it better" it was mostly "what layers of polish can we put on top here to make stuff better", visual hints that make a mechanic clear [I don't want people being confused over what something does, I want them being confused over how to use the mechanics they have to solve a puzzle, that was a flaw of the flash game], how to more effectively teach the mechanics of the game (by having a really strong intro) so you can get to the real puzzles faster, etc. Curiously a lot of stuff that makes a game generally better is stuff that will help a game do better in the IGF too, whoda thunk?

Its been working for us, and most of all I'm really happy with the way it turned out, its just like I wanted the game to be, people seem to enjoy it, critics and judges seem to enjoy it, and its eliciting the exact reactions I want out of people when they play it at conventions and stuff. It never felt like we had to sacrifice anything to do this other than time and effort.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #1101 on: February 23, 2012, 04:57:32 PM »

that's good to hear, looking forward to playing it even more now

however, as i mentioned earlier, it feels like all of what you just wrote about were obvious/easy design decisions. except for the complete removal of text, they sound like things you don't have to think too hard about, things that you wouldn't necessarily need the igf to know about

on the other hand, a lot of what you wrote was about giving the game elements more clarity (even if it's not through text, just through their placement, use, and so on). there are times when i feel that a game can have *too much* clarity. one of the reasons i liked braid and aquaria is because they weren't always hyper-clear, they had hidden stuff and stuff you had to figure out through experimentation. so on the one hand it's good that players aren't confused, but too much of it and a game sort of loses its mystery. i think a good compromise is that the basic elements of a game should be as clear as possible, but the peripheral or optional ones should still have some degree of oblique learning by experiment. so hopefully closure still has some of that?
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #1102 on: February 23, 2012, 05:07:52 PM »

however, as i mentioned earlier, it feels like all of what you just wrote about were obvious/easy design decisions. except for the complete removal of text, they sound like things you don't have to think too hard about, things that you wouldn't necessarily need the igf to know about

No, they aren't difficult decisions, that's the point. You don't have to sacrifice to improve a game (the main non-polish improvement was spending a shitload of time on a good intro), but it does take a little inspiration and thinking and looking at stuff with an open mind.

(also, adding grays and scrolling were the only tough-ish decisions, but necessary and good ones in the end)

(I'm gonna make a walkthrough dev-commentary of new closure's tutorial next month, if you're curious what went into the intro and don't mind being slightly spoiled)

Quote
but the peripheral or optional ones should still have some degree of oblique learning by experiment. so hopefully closure still has some of that?
Experimentation is how all the mechanics are introduced, there's just a lot of visual cues on them to make them more clear and easy to identify

There's also 30 hidden silver moths which often require really weird use of the mechanics that I couldn't with good faith use for "required" puzzles
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 05:18:44 PM by Glaiel-Gamer » Logged
DavidCaruso
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« Reply #1103 on: February 23, 2012, 05:13:09 PM »

i've played game boy games with both better art and better sound than many of the igf visual and audio category winners

This might be the best quote in this thread.
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Matthew
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« Reply #1104 on: February 23, 2012, 05:53:47 PM »


Regarding money!  When you enter a competition--any competition--your money goes towards:

1) Running the event

2) Shit the finalists win

you'd sort of expect the "running the event" part to include "making sure judges judge all games"? "whoops guys we got all the games but we forgot the judging!!! we'll pick a winner at random ok?"

All games were judged; not all judges play all games.  Those are two different things!  Reread this: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=22256.msg694955#msg694955

The juries have individual mailing lists where potential finalists are discussed out in the open.  All jurists play all games up for a final vote.
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Matthew Wegner
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« Reply #1105 on: February 23, 2012, 05:58:03 PM »

yeah i know they dont all play all games but they should at least all play their assigned games, and logically all games have at least a judge or two assigned to them?

didn't know about the over-assigning though, that does make sense!! they did have a few judges play their game after all. still that would've been a more forward answer and its kinda sad that it's lost among the piles of weird excuses and defensive reactions


you have all these stereotypes about monsters but the truth is that we are REALLY COOL

I dunno, most monsters just stand there when hurt while I hit them with same critical magic until they die. :/

Can monsters even make videogames?

so this is the critical magic :,( I WILL COMPLETE A GAME ONE DAY OKAY


I wish I was an admin so I could run these every 2-3 months.

nothing is stopping you dragonmaw melly made the game by its cover compo before he died.


If your game was broken and nobody told you, then some people were being crap and that sucks. But don't make stuff up to complain that nobody submits this sort of problem when that's not true.

I didnt say nobody did, but the judge that wrote that angry rant definitely said they did and that they were a mean person. and the rotten cartridge guys said that more than one of their assigned judges didnt even touch their game, one didnt install it either!! sounds like noob judges...
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #1106 on: February 23, 2012, 06:01:29 PM »

i have more problem with judges that play a game for 5 min than judges that don't install a game. if you don't install a game that's fine, there can be a number of reasons for it: lack of time, not having the right hardware, or even just forgetting that you're an igf judge. but to commit to judging a game, and to install a game, and then play it only for 5 minutes, that is worse than not even bothering to install it
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #1107 on: February 23, 2012, 06:03:58 PM »

There were a few games I judged this year whose initial experience was so profoundly toxic to my mental well-being that I did not play them longer than a few minutes.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #1108 on: February 23, 2012, 06:05:31 PM »

There were a few games I judged this year whose initial experience was so profoundly toxic to my mental well-being that I did not play them longer than a few minutes.

haha, what -- you have mental well-being? where?
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The Monster King
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« Reply #1109 on: February 23, 2012, 06:09:25 PM »

its rude as fuck but idk its pretty silly you wouldn't play all your assigned games? lack of time kind of feels disappointing as an answer... but I guess the games are overassigned??

at least 5 mins you have sort of a feel!! I'd give more than 5 min even to shitty games though
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #1110 on: February 23, 2012, 06:18:52 PM »

5 min is only warranted if the entire game is 5 minutes long, like with you have to burn the rope

like imagine playing aquaria for 5 min. you'd get no weapon at all, you'd see no enemies at all. if you play fast enough maybe you'd get that song that lets you pick up rocks, but probably not because by that point you're probably just still becoming familiar with the controls and bouncing off of walls
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #1111 on: February 23, 2012, 06:28:45 PM »

haha, what -- you have mental well-being? where?

I am even more serene than you, Ron Paul Eres
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hanako
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« Reply #1112 on: February 23, 2012, 06:32:48 PM »

5 min is only warranted if the entire game is 5 minutes long, like with you have to burn the rope

like imagine playing aquaria for 5 min. you'd get no weapon at all, you'd see no enemies at all. if you play fast enough maybe you'd get that song that lets you pick up rocks, but probably not because by that point you're probably just still becoming familiar with the controls and bouncing off of walls

Someone playing all their assigned games for five minutes or less each is different from someone playing one of their assigned games for five minutes or less. The one doesn't imply the other.

Any judge who doesn't give more than five minutes to any of their assigned games is not doing their job, but every judge probably gets at least one game that they could quite easily and accurately judge within five minutes.

If someone submitted 'Click the Clown' how long would you play it before consigning them to the category of 'troll'? Smiley Probably at least a few minutes to see if there was a punch line to the joke. Probably not an hour.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #1113 on: February 23, 2012, 06:42:44 PM »

that's a trick question, because click the clown is not even 5 minutes long. it's about as long as you have to burn the rope
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« Reply #1114 on: February 23, 2012, 06:46:18 PM »

You could make a version with a zillion levels, each with a slightly different color!

(It was the most immediately recognisable name I could think of for something you could look at and instantly go "Er, no.")
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #1115 on: February 23, 2012, 06:57:18 PM »

i guess i just don't personally have that "er no" reaction to any game, so i don't understand it. games that are bad are actually more interesting for me to play than games that are good; they often have much more of the author's personality in them than polished games

i've played about 1000 different ohrrpgce games for instance, and the majority of them are horrible, but i still enjoyed playing them, just seeing the creative process of kids at work. i think if you look at a bad game similar to how you look at a baby's drawing/scribbles, it becomes lot more interesting than if you look at it like you look at feces
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phubans
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« Reply #1116 on: February 23, 2012, 07:31:00 PM »

This is what our failed IGF entry looks like:



- Obviously it is a real game and not a "troll." We actually put a lot of time and effort into making this game so far.

- It is possible to play 7 out of the 10 demo stages within 5 minutes, provided you know what you're doing.

- It is possible to get a total understanding of the game from 5 minutes of play, but I'd hope that people would be more engaged than to limit themselves to 5 minutes.

- I should also note that everyone who's played this game (mostly experienced industry professionals) have remarked that it's very well made and "will make us piles of money."

...So yeah, I don't really think there's anything wrong with our game. I'm not really even mad, just suspicious. Like I said before, I'm confident that this game will enjoy great success on the market, with or without the IGF.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 07:43:34 PM by phubans » Logged

aeiowu
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« Reply #1117 on: February 23, 2012, 07:40:09 PM »

On desertion and divisive issues at TIGForums

There is a group of caustic personalities that are die-hard here. The pedantic, abrasive, unconstructive attitudes from a minority of the users here destroys the morale of a great deal of passionate and well-meaning individuals. I know it destroys mine, at least temporarily. So I don't come around here much anymore. If I'm going to spend time on the internet not working, then I like to enjoy that time, whether it be through learning, laughing or making connections with other people. Healthy discourse is good, but this isn't really the case here. There is very little consideration and respect for others and when it's brought up that the IGF and etc. really do want to help and are listening, the resentment persists and the witch-hunts set sail.

When I first checked in to this thread I saw Phubans specifically tearing my game apart for getting an honorable mention over his in the mobile category. I can understand his point about our game (he said it looked like a weekend tech demo) and that he's upset. But it still hurt kind of a lot. I met Paul last GDC and I thought we became fast friends so it was hard to hear that the reason he was upset was because of my game, in some way or another. I think Spunk and Moxie looks pretty sweet, I haven't played it but I think it's going to do well just from the looks of it.

This whole thread unfolded into more unsavory feelings that were very un-TIGForums. I look back on the 1000+ posts I've made over the years here and I remember the community much more fondly than what it has become. There seemed to be a brightness inside of the gang here; a positivity that was talented, critical and very productive. I'm sure that exists in certain pockets of the forums here today, it has to, but a certain attitude has taken hold of the TIGForums, it's incessantly contrarian and a lot of people are disgusted by it. It has repelled me from continuing to visit this place and it seems to be bleeding into other people.

I think a big reason it seems like there is a divide between those that sympathize with the IGF and the people that run it is because we see them as people, not a conglomerate of rules to rally against. This isn't politics, there is no real system entrenched in centuries of tradition and habit. These are people running this thing and they have feelings, but more importantly, they have the purest of intentions for the future of the Indie Games and us. When you piss all over those people without more than a few minutes of thought about how they might feel about it, you're being a jerk. Criticism and changes are necessary, we should be continually be editing things, but the way people are acting about this is hurtful, destructive and immature. It's because Brandon and Simon care so much that they are vulnerable. You can't have one without the other. You'd do well as a human being to understand this at all times and treat others with an empathy that understands fortune is part of your own perception and that everyone, even the richest most successful and happiest looking people have deep pain and struggle to deal with.

Never would the human brain allow ourselves to be completely rid of struggle. I don't expect anything to change around here with the general tone of the community, it's been like this for quite awhile. But this is how I see it, so don't be surprised when a lot of people that used to post a lot or be more heavily involved with TIGForums to come out of the woodwork to say "calm down, let's work together and be civil" in hopes of being constructive and mitigating the damage that is being done to people whose sole intention, very truly, is to help as much as is humanly possible. The pointing and fighting is destructive not only to the IGF itself, but to the possible conversation that could be had if we all took the position that behaving like children was not tolerated or at the very least, ignored.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #1118 on: February 23, 2012, 07:40:33 PM »

@phubans - caveat: you don't know if your game was one of the games that judges only played for 5 minutes. you should put in some time-tracking software for next year
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phubans
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« Reply #1119 on: February 23, 2012, 07:49:27 PM »

When I first checked in to this thread I saw Phubans specifically tearing my game apart for getting an honorable mention over his in the mobile category. I can understand his point about our game (he said it looked like a weekend tech demo) and that he's upset. But it still hurt kind of a lot. I met Paul last GDC and I thought we became fast friends so it was hard to hear that the reason he was upset was because of my game, in some way or another. I think Spunk and Moxie looks pretty sweet, I haven't played it but I think it's going to do well just from the looks of it.

Greg, I want to apologize for that. I said some very stupid things out of anger of losing, and I didn't mean for them to be personal attacks, especially not on you. It was only after I realized that I had already said those things that I realized the error of my ways. I'm sincerely sorry. I remember meeting you and Mike and thinking you were both really great dudes, and I didn't even realize that half of the games I was dissing were made by friends and people I knew. You could imagine my embarrassment and chagrin when I realized that Honorable Mention was yours. I've wanted to apologize for that ever since, and I've never really had the opportunity to do that until now. So again, I'm really sorry for the stupid things I said out of anger Embarrassed
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