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[Matthew]

What's the opportunity cost of posting to TIGSource all day?

If you're posting here, you have free time.  If you own a computer, you have expendable income (at least to the point where "I need all my money for food" isn't true, or you would have bought food and not a computer).

Then again, if you're posting from the library while you're waiting for your bus to show up, I'll shut my mouth and buy you a beer (and a meal) if we ever cross paths.

[jonschubbe]

You could always organize meetups and bar-hopping with indie devs in your area and hometown. Greg Wohlwend organized a small group of people who he's never met before as soon as he moved, and I only found out about their get-togethers through a college grad friend of mine. A friend and I also hosted a Newgrounds meetup a couple years ago and got a lot of awesome Flash developers to come out as well, which was awesome!

[hanako]

Its an actual investment to go even if you weren't for a contest... Its still extremely worth it for how much it costs, there is nothing else that you could spend your money on that would get you as much long term gain as you do for going to GDC once.

I think what some people have been objecting to is the notion of one-size-fits-all that a lot of people seem to be coming out with.

Many people have been to the GDC and had awesome experiences. Does this mean it will be so for everybody in 100% of cases? Probably not. Even if it's a positive step for 60% or 90% of people, even if you have only the best intentions in mind, telling other people that you know what's best for them tends to rub them the wrong way.

How much is the GDC going to benefit someone who doesn't speak English? Someone who's massively shy and has trouble talking to people? (I don't actually know the answers to these questions as I haven't been there.)

Nothing is equally easy for everyone, nothing is equally beneficial for everyone, we all make our own decisions about what's worth it. And sometimes we're idiots and we make the wrong ones.

If you own a computer, you have expendable income (at least to the point where "I need all my money for food" isn't true, or you would have bought food and not a computer).

If you use the computer to earn your living, selling it to buy food would be pretty short-sighted.

[TeeGee]

If my game would get nominated, I would also go at all costs. Even if I had to sell a kidney. Then it would be an actual investment.

Its an actual investment to go even if you weren't for a contest... Its still extremely worth it for how much it costs, there is nothing else that you could spend your money on that would get you as much long term gain as you do for going to GDC once.

I understand that it's an investment. However at this point, better investments for me are: food, rent and game development. You guys are surely all great and I would love to meet you, but making games gives me more value for money, at least right now.

It doesn't in any way change the fact that the relative cost of attending GDC varies greatly from person to person. It's not universally cheap or just a matter of willing.

What's the opportunity cost of posting to TIGSource all day?

If you're posting here, you have free time.  If you own a computer, you have expendable income (at least to the point where "I need all my money for food" isn't true, or you would have bought food and not a computer).

Then again, if you're posting from the library while you're waiting for your bus to show up, I'll shut my mouth and buy you a beer (and a meal) if we ever cross paths.

Is this aimed at me? If so, please read my last post.

[MMVFM]

but also keep in mind that some of those connections are also extremely useful in improving your game quality... just talking to jon blow or edmund or tommy for support or questions is an extremely helpful thing...

yes, because that will work out/happen for everyone as long as they go to GDC. Everybody who ever went to GDC also became best friends with Will Smith and Baron Rothschild. Which is a bizarre comparison of course, but it's not like going to GDC will automatically give you entry to the elite clubs. (I'm not going to use quotation marks because it really is there)

What happened to you isn't necessarily what will happen to everybody else...

[Noel Berry]

I went to GDC for the first time last year when I was 18 years old. I'm fortunate enough to live in North America (Canada) so luckily the flights aren't too outrageous, but all told the cost of the trip was close to $1,800 USD (flight, food, hotel, pass). GDC was probably one of the best experiences I've ever had, and I met a ton of amazing connections, friends, and people I never thought I would ever run into. Completely and entirely worth it.

I was able to afford it because I spent my spare time developing flash games that earned enough money for me to travel. This year I'm basically doing exactly the same thing. So far, I've found that if I work on these flash games and websites in my spare time over the 12 months between each GDC, I have enough to make it there.

It's definitely not cheap, and it can be pretty tough to get there... But I think that, for the average person who has a computer/laptop, you can probably find a way to get there.

[MMVFM]

I didn't even want to look at the IGF nominations because it's such a big source of bad feelings for me, even though I haven't submitted anything this year. When I did, I was actually pleasantly surprised by a lot of the nominations but I think the judging system is still disgusting. Last year more than one judge was also an actual nominee, dunno if that's the case this year but at any rate the super-incestuous circle jerk (yes, let's use that word as if it never fell out of fashion) of the indie elite taking turns in being nominees and panel judges is pretty sickening.

[starsrift]

but also keep in mind that some of those connections are also extremely useful in improving your game quality... just talking to jon blow or edmund or tommy for support or questions is an extremely helpful thing...

If only there was some kind of online forum for indies where they could share their wisdom.  

[jonschubbe]

How much is the GDC going to benefit someone who doesn't speak English? Someone who's massively shy and has trouble talking to people? (I don't actually know the answers to these questions as I haven't been there.)

Nothing is equally easy for everyone, nothing is equally beneficial for everyone, we all make our own decisions about what's worth it. And sometimes we're idiots and we make the wrong ones.

Yeah that goes back to the basics of any industry or business. There are some super intelligent people I know that get beat out for jobs because they lack the social skills.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

If you own a computer, you have expendable income (at least to the point where "I need all my money for food" isn't true, or you would have bought food and not a computer).

what if you use your computer for your work (and hence for your money and food)? i don't really think of a computer as expendable, since i'd be unable to pay for rent and food without a computer

there's also a big difference between an expendable $300 for a computer every four years (most of my computers have been around that price range and that frequency), and an expendable $1250 for a trip every year -- the scale is much different

but i'm not trying to turn into a 'who is the poorest among us all' competition; that'd most likely be won by those people who are younger than 18 (there's a significant number of them on this forum), have no income at all (besides what their parents give them), and are consequently extremely limited in being able to attend things like the gdc for that reason. there are plenty of really excellent 15-16 year old indie game developers who would love to be able to attend the gdc but can't

but my main point was just that *some* amount of expendable income doesn't mean you can afford *anything*, there's a big jump from 'being able to afford a computer' to 'being able to afford a trip across the country / to another country to attend an event with a ticket that costs two months income'. it's like saying 'well, you can afford a cell phone, can't you? then obviously you can also afford a house!'

[Alexander Bruce]

I've earned $0 per month for the last 2 years, and will have spent everything I had going into this on attending conferences like GDC etc. And yes, I've even attended some of them without any reason to be there at all, other than the value I expected to get from them.

It's been the most useful investment I could have ever made, and I do not care at all about how much any of that cost. My first GDC in 2010 cost me thousands of dollars to attend, but gave me so much perspective for the following years that to argue that that money could have gone to something "more useful" for the situation I was in is completely false.

Was it a risk? YES! Did it pay off about 1000x more than I could have anticipated? Absolutely!

If you want to get into any "secret elite indie friends club" or whatever, walk up to one of the people you believe to be in it and say hi. You'll very quickly find out that everyone is in the same boat at the end of the day, and that very rarely have any of them "made it" in the way that these forums would perceive.

If you really look at the people who become successful at what they're doing, you'll find out that quite a number of them were willing to run themselves into the ground to make it happen. Not everyone has this as their highest priority, some people "just want to make games" or whatever, and if that's the case, that's fine too!

What you guys call the indie elite, I call people with enough passion and drive to never stop striving to get better at what they do, whatever the cost.

[Matthew]

Is this aimed at me? If so, please read my last post.

Aimed at Paul, if it's aimed at anyone specifically (who brought up opportunity cost first).  Wasn't aimed at you.

If you use the computer to earn your living, selling it to buy food would be pretty short-sighted.

Agreed!  And if you want to make games with your life, not going to GDC is pretty short-sighted too.  It doesn't need to be GDC specifically--there are lots of regional substitutes outside of the US.  You can also stoke the fires of local community.

That's an extreme example, because there are a lot of part-time hobbyists and the like here too with no intent to dedicate all available resources to game dev.  Which is also totally fine!

[MMVFM]

Look Alex, congrats on becoming part of the elite through spending $1000's of dollars on flying across the world, tirelessly socializing and of course, making a game that obviously impressed the indie elite (as well as a lot of other people). But how does the fact that you (and many others) made it without starting out as "insiders" mean there couldn't possibly be a problem with buddy nepotism among the indie elite?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

regarding the opportunity cost of posting on tigsource, i didn't reply to that, but that's kind of obvious -- not everything is done for one's work. posting on tigsource is done for leisure, as a break from other things, similar to playing games, or going for a walk, or watching youtube. i don't think anyone sees posting on tigsource as part of their marketing plan (not even mattg). so there would be no opportunity cost since most people require a certain amount of leisure / rest time each day (some more than others, but most people require at least some leisure), how they spend it varies. for instance, from your own company:

Mr. Swink quit his job, moved to Tempe, Ariz., and joined Flashbang Studios to work on his own creations. But far from being a starving artist, Mr. Swink has managed to buy himself a house and he has more time to himself. The office has a mountain unicycling club and most days they only work six hours a day, four days a week.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124094416078864595.html

[Alexander Bruce]

Look, you guys are totally right. I'll admit that. Much like how Michael Phelps won all of his medals at the Olympics because his friends told everyone to slow down and let him win.

[jonschubbe]

Look, you guys are totally right. I'll admit that. Much like how Michael Phelps won all of his medals at the Olympics because his friends told everyone to slow down and let him win.

michael phelps smoked a bong once thats why hes successful

[deathtotheweird]

Look, you guys are totally right. I'll admit that. Much like how Michael Phelps won all of his medals at the Olympics because his friends told everyone to slow down and let him win.

What are you fucking stupid? Comparing a game developer to an Olympic swimmer has got to be the dumbest fucking comparison I have ever heard of.

[MMVFM]

Look, you guys are totally right. I'll admit that. Much like how Michael Phelps won all of his medals at the Olympics because his friends told everyone to slow down and let him win.

did you read what I said? many of the most talented/driven people will become successful no matter what, but that doesn't mean there couldn't possibly be any problem whatsoever with cronyism.

[Murudai]

Herp de derp derp durr. Derpy derp hurr durr durr herp derp. Derp derp derp herpy durr. Herp de derp de derp de hurr durr herp derp. Durr durr derp derp. Herpy derpy derpy herp. Derp. Hurrrrrrrrr derp. Derp derp herp herp. Durrrrrrr.

[Matthew]

Mr. Swink quit his job, moved to Tempe, Ariz., and joined Flashbang Studios to work on his own creations. But far from being a starving artist, Mr. Swink has managed to buy himself a house and he has more time to himself. The office has a mountain unicycling club and most days they only work six hours a day, four days a week.

Yup!  These things make for a good story.

The article doesn't mention that Steve worked as an instructor at The Art Institute of Phoenix (and still does to this very day).  We also didn't bring up the 10 training games we made for Cisco, because nobody really wants to hear about boring corporate contract work.  The illusion of the company is a lot more compelling than the real thing.

If you do want to hear about our tremendous successes, look up my Raptor Safari talk from last year's Failure Workshop.  Or come to the IGS this year for Steve's talk about Shadow Physics.  If secret handshakes and connections are all it takes to succeed, why did we both fail?  I thought we were pretty well connected.