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[ofmana]

Phil Fish: He did it for our sins. He might not walk on water, but he jumps into the pool.

None of the onlookers are engaged in a big ol'circlejerk. This picture is clearly an inaccurate portrayal of IGF.

[Zack Bell]

*refers back to OP* 

[leonelc29]

@dislekcia
well, it's a different story for going there because nominated, and going there just to know more people. the 1st one is totally worth it, as you must be there or kick out. the later one is kinda 50/50. so, all in all, going there just to meet-up is kinda worth it, but it just somekind of optional choice to know more people face to face.

[Soulliard]

I don't get all the IGF hate. Of course, connections matter, but that's true of any business. For what it is, I think the competition is run well, and gives the majority of the games a fair shake.

But comments like this are incredibly ignorant:

If you can't pull off GDC you simply don't care enough to make it happen.

Plane tickets alone can represent several months' income for some folks. Not everyone can cut $1000 and change from their budget. What do you expect them to go without so they can pay for GDC? Heat? Proper nutrition? A vehicle? A decent work computer? Health insurance?

[Dragonmaw]

Edit: Also, why isn't allen banned? His posts have no actual content, just insults and trolling.

Allen's posts are colorful and offensive but also realistic and serve to ground the discussion, imho.

Sure, on a rare occasion. But mostly it's just swearing and trolling.

Allen is not going to be banned simply because you don't actually read his posts beyond the few times that he gets mad. I would actually say that he has a far better post history than most people on these forums, myself included. You can clamor for his banning (you have for a while now, IIRC) but he's not likely to get smacked with one. Allen is as much a valued member of this community as you or I.

Regarding all this talk about the IGF: it is what it is. Honestly, it would be nice if we could start an annual auteur game competition. Something to celebrate the more weird, less polished, more interesting games. I know the Nuovo sorta covers that but I think a full-blown festival/competition just for those sorts of games would be slick. The IGF fits within a very specific niche, and one that is needed (polished indie games). But it does have its limitations and controversies.

[Ooops]

I know I'd be very upset if that was my head photoshopped on a cross.  Nothing to do with blasphemy (I don't care about that part), but Jesus (no pun intended), this is a torture instrument!

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

It's true though, there's no need to be a dick about being successful. But even if you aren't a dick, a lot of people will de facto brand you as one.

this isn't true; derek is successful but no one brands him as a jerk, because he doesn't talk down to people after achieving his success

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Plane tickets alone can represent several months' income for some folks. Not everyone can cut $1000 and change from their budget. What do you expect them to go without so they can pay for GDC? Heat? Proper nutrition? A vehicle? A decent work computer? Health insurance?

i actually don't even have health insurance or a vehicle. those would be even more expensive than the gdc

[jonbro]

I think that babycastles attempts to fill that niche to a certain extent, however, their specific locality makes it kinda hard to get so fucking pumped about it.

Also I can't help but guess there would be a thousand shouts of "UNFAIR" in response to the art world curatorial approach that they take towards choosing the games that they show there. Even so, I would like to see more baby castles in the world.

There is a wide spectrum of gaming represented, and even with this threads obsession with demonizing characters they know, I think there are plenty of unknowns on the list as well. I think there were a ton of games that got honorable mentions that ARE FUCKING GREAT, and should probably be finalists. I went through all of the entries when they were posted, and there were a ton in there that didn't get mentions that were great as well. There was some shit too. Even so, I bet the judging was incredibly hard. I can't imagine the struggle it was to do it.

I think maybe the issue is that there is only one IGF, where with film festivals there is one in nearly every city, and you can have a ton of small victories rather than being SUNDANCE OR BUST. Indiecade et al serve to lighten this load, and I really like the games they picked out over there too.

@Jabberwocky - your game looks fucking amazing! Would really like to play it.

[dislekcia]

@dislekcia
well, it's a different story for going there because nominated, and going there just to know more people. the 1st one is totally worth it, as you must be there or kick out. the later one is kinda 50/50. so, all in all, going there just to meet-up is kinda worth it, but it just somekind of optional choice to know more people face to face.

Except that people don't seem to believe anyone who says that the connections and friends they've made at events they "just went to" were worth it for them. TBH, if you go to something like GDC, go for a reason and work towards that the whole time - the difference being that it's way more fun than conferences in any other industry.

Also, to all the people wanting more competitions: What about IndieCade, SOWN, IndieCity, etc?

[Matthew]

But comments like this are incredibly ignorant:

If you can't pull off GDC you simply don't care enough to make it happen.

I'm getting some shit for this comment, but I still stand by it.  I was a volunteer for 7 years at the GDC (the folks in brightly-colored shirts checking your passes).  There are ~500 volunteers these days, from all countries and financial situations and walks of life.  Some of them are employed in the AAA industry, but their employers won't buy passes, and some are students or indies or even people just eyeballing the seriousness of following their dream by working in games.

I'm not ignorant of the challenges of getting to GDC, especially if you're outside of the US.  I just think the attitude that GDC attendance is overwhelmingly impossible for some people is bullshit.  I didn't say it was easy, just that it's possible if you want it enough.

Watch the "Enforcers" episode of Penny Arcade TV.  They interview a volunteer who says he's quit or been fired from multiple jobs because of taking time off for PAX: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/enforcers

P.S.  Actually, there is one demographic that might butt up against impossible.  If you're a young, single male from a politically tumultuous country, you might have a hard time even getting in to the damn country (even with a visa invite letter).  Yay immigration policy.

[st33d]

It's true though, there's no need to be a dick about being successful. But even if you aren't a dick, a lot of people will de facto brand you as one.

this isn't true; derek is successful but no one brands him as a jerk, because he doesn't talk down to people after achieving his success

I should clarify: there are people who seek out targets to brand as a villain. I'm sure the list of idiots that managed to get themselves banned from TIGSource aren't in Derek's fan club.

[Ooops]

But comments like this are incredibly ignorant:

If you can't pull off GDC you simply don't care enough to make it happen.

I'm getting some shit for this comment, but I still stand by it. 

Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum 

[Dragonmaw]

It's true though, there's no need to be a dick about being successful. But even if you aren't a dick, a lot of people will de facto brand you as one.

this isn't true; derek is successful but no one brands him as a jerk, because he doesn't talk down to people after achieving his success

I should clarify: there are people who seek out targets to brand as a villain. I'm sure the list of idiots that managed to get themselves banned from TIGSource aren't in Derek's fan club.

Given that I ban most people these days, I'd say that it's more they aren't in my fan club

[TeeGee]

But comments like this are incredibly ignorant:

If you can't pull off GDC you simply don't care enough to make it happen.

I'm getting some shit for this comment, but I still stand by it.  I was a volunteer for 7 years at the GDC (the folks in brightly-colored shirts checking your passes).  There are ~500 volunteers these days, from all countries and financial situations and walks of life.  Some of them are employed in the AAA industry, but their employers won't buy passes, and some are students or indies or even people just eyeballing the seriousness of following their dream by working in games.

I'm not ignorant of the challenges of getting to GDC, especially if you're outside of the US.  I just think the attitude that GDC attendance is overwhelmingly impossible for some people is bullshit.  I didn't say it was easy, just that it's possible if you want it enough.

Watch the "Enforcers" episode of Penny Arcade TV.  They interview a volunteer who says he's quit or been fired from multiple jobs because of taking time off for PAX: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/enforcers

P.S.  Actually, there is one demographic that might butt up against impossible.  If you're a young, single male from a politically tumultuous country, you might have a hard time even getting in to the damn country (even with a visa invite letter).  Yay immigration policy.

I don't think anybody said that it's absolutely impossible to get to the GDC (besides the extreme cases you mentioned). Only that the difficulty and cost/gain ratio will vary deeply from person to person, and attributing it only to one's willingness is highly condescending and ignorant.

Notice that all supporters of your statement come from the US, while most people who oppose to it come from different parts of the world. As brog already said: privilege is invisible to those who have it. Dislekcia is an exception, and he makes a fair point that with enough dedication anything is possible. Though, he had more than a viable reason to drop everything and go, with the DD's nomination (well deserved, it's a fantastic game!), while for most it would be simply unwise to indebt oneself just to hang around with cool people for a few days. Networking is obviously very important, but you can do it through cheaper means.

[Matthew]

Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum 

Whatever.  I strongly believe that anyone can accomplish what everyone can accomplish.  I've talked to plenty of crazy people with crazy stories on how they got to GDC.  Maybe the sacrifice isn't worth it in your position, and you'd rather not do what it takes to make the trip, but the decision is yours.

TeeGee:  Agree!  I'm not saying it's as easy for everyone else to get to GDC as it is for me to get to GDC.  That's kind of silly (I'm in Phoenix, so it's a cheap/short flight).  I do think it's irritating that people take the stance of, "Pssssh, I'm in Poland.  Ever heard of it?"  Why, yes, I have, when I met a Polish attendee last year...

BTW, the sacrifice required to become an IGF finalist itself is increasing.  More finalists these days have been in development for longer cycles.  There may come a time when you need to put years into a title, to stand any real chance of a Grand Prize nomination, and I guess people will bitch about that too.

[Dragonmaw]

Networking is obviously very important, but you can do it through cheaper means.

Like posting on an indie games forum. Now where will I find one of those?

[Manuel Magalhães]

I heard good things about the indiegames.com forums.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@st33d

actually there are people who were banned from tigsource who still like derek -- phubans is one example

but in any case those people would dislike derek *because he banned them*, not because of his success. so the idea that people will think anyone who is successful is a jerk still seems inaccurate (but you did change the idea to 'seeking out successful people who are jerks to see as a jerk', which seems obvious)

i'm unsure of the term villain tho. i don't think anyone sees phil fish, mattheww et al as villains. the way i see it as working is: there is a supply and demand for indie games. there's much more supply than there is demand: there's more great games out there than the market can support. music and print media have a similar issue

so, let's estimate that only ~100 people can make a living through (downloadable, non-casual) indie games, but there are ~10,000 indie game developers. of those, let's say ~1000 of them make great games, and the other 9000 make so-so or poor games

so that means only 10% of great games will get the exposure they "deserve". for every cactus you have 10 cosminds, for every jeff vogel (of spiderweb software) you have 10 mark pays (of the spirit engine). what determines which 10% of great games get exposure are factors like experience, promotional ability, connections, social skills, luck, and so on

now, of the people who a) make a great game (10% of all games), and b) manage to have that game be successful (10% of all great games), you have a certain percent of those people who believe that the other 90% of already great games which are not successful are just not *as* great as the 10% of games which are successful, and that luck and connections etc. has little to nothing to do with it. it's *those* people who get called jerks. people who recognize that their success is largely due to luck and other factors, like notch has said of his success, are not called jerks. those people recognize that there are people out there who work every bit as hard as they do, but get less results for it

but such people aren't villains at all, they're just a little short-sighted and inadvertently offensive. the real "villain", if there is one, is the situation where supply so far exceeds demand that only a small fraction of people can make a living as indie game developers (no matter how high their talent at game development is)

the reason that situation exists is probably beyond the purpose of this post / topic of this thread, but there are a lot of different reasons for it, and i'm not sure which are the most important of those reasons

[Ooops]

Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum 

Whatever.  I strongly believe that anyone can accomplish what everyone can accomplish. 

Me too, because that's a truism.

Maybe the sacrifice isn't worth it in your position, and you'd rather not do what it takes to make the trip, but the decision is yours.

I'm not talking about myself here. If I ever complete something that I think would strongly benefit from my presence at the GDC, I'd have no real financial trouble attending, even if such trip would cost me more than for most of the GDC attendees. But I see beyond my own privileged situation.

And guess what? I would be able to afford it, because I'm not ultra-extra-mega DEDICATED: I still have a day job. So dedicating your whole life to an indie project, to the point of not having other sources of income, would make things MORE difficult, not LESS!