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Danrul
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« Reply #680 on: January 12, 2012, 11:33:34 AM »

I think you have to realise my point about GDC attendance is more to say that a common response to criticism is to ask people to approach whoever they want to talk to and say hello.  It is highly improbably people will get to do this in person, especially casually, given the costs of GDC attendance, which is an event all you fellers enjoy and attend and see eachother at.

So, to say that people need to sacrifice things and realise what they need to give up in order to go is missing the point.  Not only is it again indicating that to be able to go and enjoy GDC to meet people you have to be well off, its also giving off this whole idea that people AREN'T ON YOUR FUCKING LEVEL and need to STOP PISSING ABOUT.

Which is why, on the internet, where you are essentially in the public air, where your comments can be freely read, and where the majority of people are going to be seeing what you're saying, you need to think carefully about how friendly you're being to the people you're trying to say you're approachable to.

And finally, just my own little personal addendum here:

Paul's been working on SD for 4-6 years. He lives off the money he makes on the sales of his last game, and doesn't have health insurance or a car.  To say that guy doesn't have dedication enough to make it is pretty fucking rich of you (haha, multiple entendre).

There are plenty of dedicated people in this community; some who give everything they have to do what it is they love.  Unfortunately financial success isn't based on dedication, and the financial standing you're raised in can have a lot to do with it.

There are people in this community who will never reach your level of success (as much as I think their dedication deserves it, looking at you Rinku and Speeder), and that's not for lack of commitment.

So, this is aimed squarely at you Mr. Wegner, for being the most vocal and open.  If you really are self made, and really have worked your way to get to this point, surely you should have compassion for the people struggling to make it and who are giving it their all.  You'd think a trip across Africa would give a man a little more empathy and a broader world view, but I guess when you're doing it on a unicycle and having a hell of a time with friends you don't have time to smell the inequality.
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jonschubbe
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« Reply #681 on: January 12, 2012, 11:39:54 AM »

Please don't belittle the idea of riding across africa on a unicycle. That is one of my dreams. Thank you.
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« Reply #682 on: January 12, 2012, 11:44:10 AM »

Except nobody here is trying to say you don't have dedication to game development or that their games suck.

But the entire point here is if you want to be able to make a living off your game, or be successful at it, you can't sit around waiting to be the next Notch. You have to actively pursue it. A good game is a prerequisite, not the only requirement.

So, why not heed the advice of people who have managed to do that? Everyone says pretty much the same thing, go to GDC, meet people, ask advice from others, network, etc.

This is possible, for everyone. Stop interpreting it as an "attack" on those who haven't done it yet. You're only hurting yourself when you do that.

If you just want to be a hobby developer, that's fine too.
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TeeGee
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« Reply #683 on: January 12, 2012, 11:49:35 AM »

TeeGee:  Agree!  I'm not saying it's as easy for everyone else to get to GDC as it is for me to get to GDC.  That's kind of silly (I'm in Phoenix, so it's a cheap/short flight).  I do think it's irritating that people take the stance of, "Pssssh, I'm in Poland.  Ever heard of it?"  Why, yes, I have, when I met a Polish attendee last year...

BTW, the sacrifice required to become an IGF finalist itself is increasing.  More finalists these days have been in development for longer cycles.  There may come a time when you need to put years into a title, to stand any real chance of a Grand Prize nomination, and I guess people will bitch about that too.

Man, after what you wrote, I could as well go Allen-style instead of "Pssssh, I'm in Poland.  Ever heard of it?". I don't take offense at what you think. I can even accept your point. But the tone? Nope. It was simply hurtful.

When I was around 20, I was the same starry-eyed young indie developer as some of the people who posted here about their GDC experience. I watched the photos from each IGF, wishing I could be there with the awesome indie crowd (I would still like that). However, it was - maybe not technically - but realistically impossible. Still, I didn't mind that. I just work hard as fuck, make contacts/friends through the internet (including some of the "famous" indies), release games, and hope that eventually I'll be financially stable enough to go. And then comes a guy and tells me that the fact I and others haven't attended yet, is because we don't want it deeply enough. Uhh...  Angry

This is something I always found interesting about your culture. You guys are extremely politically correct in some cases. Like, just mention the topic or gender, queerness or race and everyone gets their pants up in a wad, as you've been taught to be very sensitive to these issues. But at the same time, you can be condescending assholes, seemingly unaware of the rest of the world, and not see anything offensive about it.

And I don't think people will complain that you have work for years to be a finalist (wasn't it always like that). Unless a guy comes over and says that whoever can't support themselves without income for 3 years just doesn't think positively enough to succeed.
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« Reply #684 on: January 12, 2012, 11:53:58 AM »

I can honestly say that ArcMagi is one of my most anticipated games. So... you have a fan in me!
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Matthew
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« Reply #685 on: January 12, 2012, 11:54:29 AM »

So, this is aimed squarely at you Mr. Wegner, for being the most vocal and open.  If you really are self made, and really have worked your way to get to this point, surely you should have compassion for the people struggling to make it and who are giving it their all.  You'd think a trip across Africa would give a man a little more empathy and a broader world view, but I guess when you're doing it on a unicycle and having a hell of a time with friends you don't have time to smell the inequality.

This is getting fairly personal, but I'll bite:  Why do you assume I'm rich?  Flashbang's salary, when we had six people and an office, was $2k/month.  The first few years had no real revenue to speak of, and I lived in my girlfriend's mom's house for $150/month.  Flashbang has never had a hit game; our 8-year lifetime revenue is an order of magnitude below even one semi-hit game.

Apologies if I came off as dispassionate.  If your interpretation of my statements hinges on some vision of me as an rich, indie elite robber baron, then we're going to end up in different places.
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Matthew Wegner
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Danrul
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« Reply #686 on: January 12, 2012, 11:58:08 AM »

@Glaiel saying what is necessary to be successful: But in saying that its about dedication and dedication alone you are missing my point.  Paul Eres is right here, in this fucking topic, in front of you.

He is in development full time.  He is not middle class, he isn't in a situation where people can support him financially and help him through until he makes it.  This is someone who is totally fucking passionate about what they're doing, and cannot afford to do all the things you label as being necessary to success.

You know what this highlights?  The fact that there is in fact an entry fee, and prerequisite costs, to being successful.  It is not possible for everyone to do, because not everyone can afford it.

Another name, even less recognised, is speeder, from around the forums.  He lives in Brazil, works toward it, and while I might personally find the guy annoying, he's nice and he's passionate about what he's doing.  He simply does not have the financial means to go to GDC and make it all happen.

People pour effort into what they do, but there is a reality to the world that not everyone has solid ground to stand on financially, and if success has to come at the hands of networking, and if you're really willing to help, you have to realise that you can't just extend that personability in person.

Also, this isn't personal for me, I have no interest in game design as a career.  I couldn't even call myself hobbyist.  I'm not attributing it as an attack, or a deliberate conspiracy to keep the little guy down.  You just need to be more understanding that you are lucky and privileged, and what may seem like a simple pathway to success to you is outside the grasp of others.

EDIT: I'll just do this response quickly and inline because I think you're missing my point here.


This is getting fairly personal, but I'll bite:  Why do you assume I'm rich?  Flashbang's salary, when we had six people and an office, was $2k/month.  The first few years had no real revenue to speak of, and I lived in my girlfriend's mom's house for $150/month.  Flashbang has never had a hit game; our 8-year lifetime revenue is an order of magnitude below even one semi-hit game.

Apologies if I came off as dispassionate.  If your interpretation of my statements hinges on some vision of me as an rich, indie elite robber baron, then we're going to end up in different places.

I have already tried to get across I don't think of you guys as "rich, indie elite robber baron".  I'm just trying to say on a human level you need to be more understanding, because your defensiveness is weakening your ability to come across as being friendly and approachable.  

You've lived on $150 a month, you must realise its difficult.  Realise there are people here doing the same, and they're just as dedicated as you would have been.  Nothing I said is driven by jealousy or loathing, I'm just trying to help everyone understand eachother a little better here.

EDIT2: Also note I'm not singling you out for any reason rather than you're actually giving responses that respond to what people are saying.  Just because I respond back doesn't mean its a cause for victimisation.

EDIT3: just a quick thing to clarify who and what i'm responding to so people don't get confused or take me out of context!  Edits galore, i'm on a roll.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 12:08:08 PM by Danrul » Logged
TeeGee
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« Reply #687 on: January 12, 2012, 12:06:19 PM »

I can honestly say that ArcMagi is one of my most anticipated games. So... you have a fan in me!

Thanks Smiley. And sorry it takes forever. Gotta entrap Lurk one of these days and not let go unless he finishes all the artwork.

But again, I don't feel excluded, unsuccessful, frustrated or butthurt in any other way. I'm using myself as an example, but I'm pretty happy about where I am in my life and career. I just get angry when someone indirectly calls me "a hobby developer" or lacking dedication, event though I spent last 7 years of my life making games professionally. Dedication and being able to spend $2k on a trip to meet some friends are two different things.
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Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #688 on: January 12, 2012, 12:07:39 PM »

I'll be blunt:  I think Paul Eres will eventually be successful.  I also think he should move on from SD.  The game is saddled with a number of problems, including a lot of really bad writing (sorry Paul!).  Pull a Tommy (who dropped Goo!, found a new partner, did a test game, and then made Super Meat Boy).  There are other stories in the same vein, too.

I always expected my 10th game to be my personal milestone for success.  I haven't even made it there, depending on how you count.  My own solution is to muster energy for another, or back off a bit if I'm too burnt out.
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Matthew Wegner
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« Reply #689 on: January 12, 2012, 12:10:12 PM »

Why do you assume I'm rich?
Your signature labels you as a partner in Indie Fund.  So presumably you're some degree of "rich" to be able to invest in other people's projects (by the standards of people here, if not by the standards of the other guys in the fund).
(I think the fund is totally cool btw - indie games aren't the safest investment by any means so it's pretty clear you're doing it out of love, which I respect.)
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Danrul
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« Reply #690 on: January 12, 2012, 12:12:21 PM »

A RESPONSE!

And this for me, is more indicative of the level of personal and tailored advice I'd like to see from those who have succeeded. While I can't speak for everyone, if you really feel you have advice to provide, don't hesitate to give it.  Everyone who is successful does not just exist as a person attending GDC, they are an online presence who should really try their best to act with maturity and respect for those who might not have made it as far.

I would also recommend either not getting defensive about "indie elite" comments or ignoring those sections of peoples comments, because as a whole the people who feel the need to respond to them do a rather tidy job of making what is a tangible gap in communication larger.

EDIT: I should probably stop doing these as edits and just consider my posts more fully before I submit them, but when when I use any kind of collective "you", and perhaps many other people, just try and consider it as a reference to "M. Wegner and his friends", also successful devs, instead of the knee jerk "M. Wegner and his band of merry indie elitists".  There are a few of you (friends), who, probably as a result of being nardburgers, aren't all that good at interacting with others (online??).  If Fish wants to come in and shit on people sarcastically, that's fine, but its actions like that which are going to make any sort of gap you're trying to avoid more and more tangible.

It'd be very easy, and it'd make sense, if you all just kinda thought "why waste my time trying to appease a bunch of strangers who I've never met and whose lives don't affect me".  If that's the case, and if you really couldn't care if some tigf member thinks you're a wanker, stop responding with victimisation in your voice.  And, if there is no genuine interest in trying to be friendly outside if someone actually comes up and talks to you in your face, stop raising it as a defense online.  The onus shouldn't be on any one party to initiate contact, especially if the insularity of your personalities is purely some form of jealousy.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 12:19:49 PM by Danrul » Logged
Dragonmaw
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« Reply #691 on: January 12, 2012, 12:14:02 PM »

I think Paul should work on a game with me.
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Matthew
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« Reply #692 on: January 12, 2012, 12:17:17 PM »

Your signature labels you as a partner in Indie Fund.

My capital contribution to Indie Fund is south of 0.5%.  This is primarily due to differences in initial intended structure and what we rolled out with (PM me if you're curious about the details).
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Matthew Wegner
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #693 on: January 12, 2012, 12:23:01 PM »

the writing in SD is actually just in first draft form (it's an unfinished game; unfinished games are allowed to be entered in the IGF, remember), so i'd suggest not judging the writing based on its current state. wynand still had to re-write and edit most of the dialogue, a lot of it is just placeholder that i put in since he hasn't had the time

i am interested in any other feedback you have about the game though (you can either post it in its thread or use a PM, so as not to distract from this topic); i didn't know you had played it. but remember that the game, despite having 4 years dev time, is still unfinished, there are still big changes to the game that i expect to add in the future

i'm pretty familiar with a lot of (but probably not all of) the problems of the game (through playtesting, etc.) and plan to fix those. the general consensus among playtesters seems to be that the game starts off slow for the first few hours before it gets good, much like aquaria. giving up the game after 4 years of work, as mattheww is suggesting, would disappoint a lot of the people who like it, as well as the rest of the team who have worked so hard on it

also danrul and mattheww probably shouldn't use me as an example of an "unsuccessful" indie. i've released a single commercial game so far, and it's succeeded more than i expected it to succeed -- about 5000 sales (i expected a few hundred). and this was back when indie games weren't a big thing (back in 2007 when they were just rising)

so just in terms of results, i'm more successful than some of the "gdc indies" (many of which have yet to release their first commercial game), even though i don't go to the gdc. it's just that even moderate success like that isn't enough to live comfortably on for 5 years. so i'd say my main mistake was being overambitious with my second commercial game; i probably should have done a sequel to ID to afford to be able to finish SD more comfortably

as an aside, the feedback SD has gotten from the IGF has been mostly positive; last year it got one piece of feedback, saying that they wish they had a "game with the most potential" award to vote for it (as well as pointing out a number of bugs that i've since fixed). so if it has so many problems that require it being given up even though it's about 80% done, i haven't heard about that from the IGF previously
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 12:53:26 PM by Paul Eres » Logged

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« Reply #694 on: January 12, 2012, 12:24:36 PM »

as an aside, the feedback SD has gotten from the IGF has been mostly positive; last year it got one piece of feedback, saying that they wish they had a "game with the most potential" award to vote for it. so if it has so many problems that require it being given up, i haven't heard about that from the IGF previously

in regards to "game with most potential", you should come to gdc to see steve swink's shadow physics talk


(I didnt play SD so I'm not gonna comment on it)
(edit: steve is giving a shadow physics talk right?)
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« Reply #695 on: January 12, 2012, 12:25:26 PM »

I'll be blunt:  I think Paul Eres will eventually be successful.  I also think he should move on from SD.  The game is saddled with a number of problems, including a lot of really bad writing (sorry Paul!).  Pull a Tommy (who dropped Goo!, found a new partner, did a test game, and then made Super Meat Boy).  There are other stories in the same vein, too.

I've never played SD, so I can't speak about its problems, but I think working on a game for 5 years is a bad idea. Not just talking about Paul, but I think anyone who works on a game for that long might have trouble seeing any problems with their games. I think the more time you spend on a project, the more attached to it you get, and you will only see it as the project you've spent 5 years of your life on.

I also think Paul will eventually be successful, maybe not with SD, but I think it will happen. I think one big problem is that nobody knows about his games. If I wasn't a member here on tigsource, I wouldn't know that it exists. I don't know if he does any marketing, but if he does, he either isn't doing enough, or isn't doing it well enough.

edit:

Your signature labels you as a partner in Indie Fund.

My capital contribution to Indie Fund is south of 0.5%.  This is primarily due to differences in initial intended structure and what we rolled out with (PM me if you're curious about the details).

Not just that, but you have co-chair of the IGF and founder of flashbang studios also in your signature. I have no idea if that really means much, but it seems like you would be well known in the indie scene.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 12:36:04 PM by cynicalsandel » Logged

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« Reply #696 on: January 12, 2012, 12:35:49 PM »

But the entire point here is if you want to be able to make a living off your game, or be successful at it, you can't sit around waiting to be the next Notch. You have to actively pursue it. A good game is a prerequisite, not the only requirement.

So, why not heed the advice of people who have managed to do that? Everyone says pretty much the same thing, go to GDC, meet people, ask advice from others, network, etc.

There are a number of people who make their living from game development who haven't been to the GDC. Stop equating "in general" with "everyone" Smiley

Networking in some form probably is actually useful for everyone. I have certainly picked up useful tips from hanging out with the right people online.

Not like a mad bastard in a cave somewhere can't create the perfect game through some combination of chance and divine inspiration, but good luck on those odds!
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #697 on: January 12, 2012, 12:36:17 PM »

in regards to "game with most potential", you should come to gdc to see steve swink's shadow physics talk

maybe i'll see it on video; i do wish the gdc would put more of their talks on video

@cynicalsandel - i did make other games while working on SD, so it wasn't 5 years of pure work on SD. for instance, i coded the fedora spade games during that interval, as well as a level editor for ID

i don't think it's true that nobody knows about my games though. as i mentioned, my last game had ~5000 sales and ~300,000 demo downloads, which isn't nobody, even if it isn't up there with super meat boy. i've even had fans randomly recognize my name while playing starcraft and league of legends, which still surprises me. and i still get google alerts for my game's name all the time, of people discussing it in forums and such

but yes it is absolutely true that i haven't done much marketing for my current game. there have been a few previews of it (on playthisthing and on indiegames.com/blog) though. and an interview here and there. but i haven't sought those out, or sent out preview copies, or made a trailer or teaser yet. i expect to do all that during the run-up to the game's release, because it's all i can do to finish the game itself, if i focused more on promotion i would not be able to finish the game for another 5 years
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Matthew
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« Reply #698 on: January 12, 2012, 12:38:12 PM »

A RESPONSE!
EDIT: I should probably stop doing these as edits and just consider my posts more fully before I submit them

The edits are a little weird, because sometimes I'll reply before seeing one and then everything is out of order.

Anyway, I do apologize for the snarky tone.  Looking through my posts, it started with a response to allen's "spoiled rich kid" accusation. Not an excuse--responding to trolls is never an excuse--just trying to put it on a timeline.  Very few things push my buttons, but the "indie elite" story is one of them.  Indie game dev is far and away the most meritocratic scene I'm a part of.  The social currency here is creation, and everyone has the tools to participate.

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Matthew Wegner
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« Reply #699 on: January 12, 2012, 12:39:33 PM »

(edit: steve is giving a shadow physics talk right?)

The "Failure Workshop" has been moved to IGS, and I believe Steve is one of the four presenters (100% confirmed schedule should be up soon).
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Matthew Wegner
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