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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralIGF Thread 2012
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Danrul
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« Reply #700 on: January 12, 2012, 12:42:13 PM »

I think its important not to bandy about the word troll.  Allen tends to raise very intelligent points, even if most people get caught up on the aggression in his tone.  It's also funny to see people call for him to be banned for not adding anything to the community, when I'd say he contributes more than anyone to the feedback forum.  

It just comes down to people not being able to see past the way people say things and see the point they're trying to raise.  While the way someone expresses themself is important, you shouldn't disregard what is being said because you disagree with how it was served to you.
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Impossible
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« Reply #701 on: January 12, 2012, 12:43:58 PM »

(I didnt play SD so I'm not gonna comment on it)
(edit: steve is giving a shadow physics talk right?)

Steve and I are giving a talk at the failure workshop.  Will probably be mostly my talk though.  I have different thoughts than Steve about a lot of key points as to why the game went wrong, I also promised myself not to really hold back during my section of the talk.  Should be interesting.
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #702 on: January 12, 2012, 12:50:44 PM »

While the way someone expresses themself is important, you shouldn't disregard what is being said because you disagree with how it was served to you.

and yet people are criticizing matthew and me for our tones right now while skimming over some of the actual points made.

In regards to "there are people who have been successful without GDC" point, yes it happens, but its not really something you can just hope for and have happen. I've seen too many people completely bomb their game's release due to the mistake of thinking that just releasing a good game is all you need to get sales on it. Business is a hugely important skill in this industry, those that succeed without it are typically exceptions not the rule. Its also a skill that many people just suck at, but it is pretty simple to find some help or advice there by networking properly.
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #703 on: January 12, 2012, 12:55:52 PM »

(I didnt play SD so I'm not gonna comment on it)
(edit: steve is giving a shadow physics talk right?)

Steve and I are giving a talk at the failure workshop.  Will probably be mostly my talk though.  I have different thoughts than Steve about a lot of key points as to why the game went wrong, I also promised myself not to really hold back during my section of the talk.  Should be interesting.

yeah cool, it's definitely a talk I will see then, even though I talked to you and steve about it a lot already.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 01:05:40 PM by Glaiel-Gamer » Logged
ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #704 on: January 12, 2012, 12:59:54 PM »

In regards to "there are people who have been successful without GDC" point, yes it happens, but its not really something you can just hope for and have happen. I've seen too many people completely bomb their game's release due to the mistake of thinking that just releasing a good game is all you need to get sales on it. Business is a hugely important skill in this industry, those that succeed without it are typically exceptions not the rule. Its also a skill that many people just suck at, but it is pretty simple to find some help or advice there by networking properly.

a lot of that business information is also available online, though; there's a business section here, there's the indiegamer.com forums (and its dexterity.com archives, although a lot of that is outdated it's still worth reading), and various secret email groups and forums that focus on the business of indie games

i doubt i'd learn more about the business of indie games in 3 days of the gdc as i've learned in 15 years on the internet. the main benefit would mostly be connections, not information
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« Reply #705 on: January 12, 2012, 01:00:33 PM »

Glaiel, you're making it sound as if Shadow Physics' development has been discontinued, is this true?
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Impossible
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« Reply #706 on: January 12, 2012, 01:06:53 PM »

Glaiel, you're making it sound as if Shadow Physics' development has been discontinued, is this true?
Has been since July.
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Danrul
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« Reply #707 on: January 12, 2012, 01:07:10 PM »

While the way someone expresses themself is important, you shouldn't disregard what is being said because you disagree with how it was served to you.

and yet people are criticizing matthew and me for our tones right now while skimming over some of the actual points made.


I'm critical of the tone that you and matthew have used.  It is impossible for anyone here to say they've acted without fault.  The way you guys defend yourself ia very defensive and kneejerk, and while that is an understandable reaction to what might feel like unjust persecution, you can't expect to resolve the idea of there being animosity and distance between your group of friends and the wider indie community if you're going to allow yourself to point the finger and get angry.

If you're genuinely interested in ridding the community of resentment, you need to stop acting with resentment and anger in your tone.  Even the quote i've highlighted you've got this indignance in your voice that you should probably learn to deal with or learn to resolve.  Sometimes people are going to be dicks, and sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and continue to be reasonable.

I guess what i'm saying comes down to: creating a friendlier community by :O being friendlier to one another and not letting yourself be baited into petty argument.  No better way to prove you're approachable than that.
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st33d
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« Reply #708 on: January 12, 2012, 01:10:36 PM »

I'll be blunt:  I think Paul Eres will eventually be successful.  I also think he should move on from SD.  The game is saddled with a number of problems, including a lot of really bad writing (sorry Paul!).  Pull a Tommy (who dropped Goo!, found a new partner, did a test game, and then made Super Meat Boy).  There are other stories in the same vein, too.

All games have issues during development. It's pretty poor to simply quit on something that isn't a disaster. Make it work.

I've only seen some screenshots of SD, but they looked beautiful. I'm interested to see it finished.
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Matthew
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« Reply #709 on: January 12, 2012, 01:11:12 PM »

I'm critical of the tone that you and matthew have used.  It is impossible for anyone here to say they've acted without fault.

Of the things I've said in this thread, what bothered you the most?  I've bordered on sarcastic, but I don't think anything approaches "outburst" level at all...
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Matthew Wegner
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« Reply #710 on: January 12, 2012, 01:14:37 PM »

It's pretty poor to simply quit on something that isn't a disaster. Make it work.

it actually takes huge balls to bail on a long term project that isnt obviously a disaster but has some unfixable flaws that prevent it from being truly great...

(again, never played SD, this comment is more in regards to shadow physics / goo / 3D marian / etc)
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Danrul
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« Reply #711 on: January 12, 2012, 01:22:25 PM »

@ Matt - It's a mixture of tone and content.  While I'd like to ask this of everyone, it's hard with a community this large. You and Glaiel being active and recognisable personalities, particularly personalities so involved in the discussion, I think it's easier to direct the criticism towards.

It basically amounts to allowing yourself to get defensive and start slinging anger back.  No matter your personal involvement, I believe you should always try your hardest to act as a moderator, and defuse the conflict rather than reacting on a personal level.  Particularly for you Matt, as you are in fact owner and Administrator of TIGS, you should try your hardest to avoid conflict and get people onside with you, rather than getting emotionally involved.

The trigger for any conflict is misunderstanding, if you keep working towards understanding the other party, there's no way you can aggravate the situation.  The exception to this of course is when the other party is not willing to extend the same courtesy, at which point you should just drop it and focus your attention elsewhere.
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« Reply #712 on: January 12, 2012, 01:27:50 PM »

It's pretty poor to simply quit on something that isn't a disaster. Make it work.

it actually takes huge balls to bail on a long term project that isnt obviously a disaster but has some unfixable flaws that prevent it from being truly great...

(again, never played SD, this comment is more in regards to shadow physics / goo / 3D marian / etc)

Yeah, you either have to bail or pivot and completely rework the game.  In the case of Shadow Physics and Goo, the core concept of a "game about shadows" or a "game about fluid" are solid, but the way those mechanics were utilized and implemented was flawed when it came to supporting actual gameplay. A pivot could have solved those problems, but at that point we would have basically had to make a new game.  This is what Marian ended up doing.
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hanako
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« Reply #713 on: January 12, 2012, 01:39:58 PM »

In regards to "there are people who have been successful without GDC" point, yes it happens, but its not really something you can just hope for and have happen.

You may notice my post also mentioned that sitting in a cave waiting for success to strike you was unlikely. Smiley

Just, seriously, a lot of people looking at the industry see only a tiny sliver of the world and think that's the whole world. It isn't. There's a lot of people out there doing their own things who aren't massive huge hits like Notch but make livings, sometimes quite good ones. Doesn't mean they're not working hard for it, just that they're going about it by a different route. World's not divided into "hobbyists" and "people who go to GDC".
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« Reply #714 on: January 12, 2012, 01:42:45 PM »

@Jabberwocky - your game looks fucking amazing! Would really like to play it.

Thanks man.
I'll drop by and post a link when I have a demo ready.

I'll toss in my opinion of GDC.  It's fun.  You meet some cool people.  But I wouldn't go through any serious hardship to get there.  You can get as much insight reading gamasutra, gamedev, or the blogs of your fav indies.

No doubt, meeting people to collaborate with is a big help.  You don't need GDC for that.  Instead, my approach would be:

1.  Build something cool. 
If you're an artist, make a cool games oriented portfolio.
If you're a programmer, make a cool demo with programmer art.

2.  Talk about it.
Make a website.
Post about it on forums with like-minded folks.
Let people know you want to collaborate.

3.  Search the net for people with the skills you need.
Show them what you've got.
Ask them if they want to build a game together.

Attending GDC is not in that list.

For the price of attending GDC, you could probably pay for a nice little chunk of pixel art, maybe enough to finish a small game if you can handle the programming yourself.  To me, that's worth a million times more than anything GDC would give you.
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TeeGee
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« Reply #715 on: January 12, 2012, 01:44:00 PM »

@ Matt - It's a mixture of tone and content.  While I'd like to ask this of everyone, it's hard with a community this large. You and Glaiel being active and recognisable personalities, particularly personalities so involved in the discussion, I think it's easier to direct the criticism towards.

To be fair, Allen did outburst on them. We should keep everyone to similar standards. Especially in a discussion that's heated even without people insulting each other or feeling like if double standards are being applied to them.

Which doesn't mean I want Allen banned or anything. I like his posts and contribution, even if I don't agree with the attitude. Likewise, I respect Matthew and Glaiel-Game and their contribution to the scene, even if few particular posts by them pissed me off. I think that people generally should be able to speak their mind and even be rude at times. Of course, I also think one should be able to react to rudeness, which is what I was doing, and which is something Matt and Glaiel should be allowed to do as well.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 01:58:17 PM by TeeGee » Logged

Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #716 on: January 12, 2012, 01:47:30 PM »

Of the things I've said in this thread, what bothered you the most?
For me, it was the implication that if you weren't at GDC (and, by extension, if you weren't successful), it was due to some personal failing.

It gave me the same vibes as people who complain about food stamps, because "Why don't they just get a job?" It's a lack of understanding or empathy for the circumstances some people have to deal with.

I know you're not a bad guy, but if I was judging you by this thread alone, I would picture you in my mind as one of the snooty private school kids that the protagonists defeat in an inspirational sports movie.
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Matthew
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« Reply #717 on: January 12, 2012, 01:50:01 PM »

For the record, I just do hosting/tech stuff on TIGSource (I've never taken an administrative action on the forums, ie a ban or whatever).

But yeah, I do try to represent all the stuff in my signature when I post.  It's one reason I don't post very much Wink
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Matthew Wegner
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« Reply #718 on: January 12, 2012, 01:50:21 PM »

this place would be so much better if so many people didn't make such a distinction between "us" and "them".

i wish i could just come here to hang out like i used to, but i cant anymore.
im constantly being attacked for this or for that.
always being accused of something or another.
being part of a conspiracy, or having somekind of unfair advantage?
this place used to be welcoming. a great recourse, a sanctuary almost.
now it's a cesspool and a hive of mediocrity where everybody is allergic to everybody else's success.

yes there is an elite.
there cant not be one.
some people are going to be better than others, and rise to the top for it.
i dont believe any of these people are there because of outside elements, but only because of talent and perseverance.
this idea that the people who succeeded only did so because of who they knew or whose dick they suck belittles the actual work that was put into that success.

i didnt get to where i am because i know brandon boyer.
as others have pointed it out in this thread, i can be quick to burn bridges, and im not shy about letting the people i dont like know i dont like them.
a LOT of people dont like me and want to see me fail. just read this fucking thread.
i got to where i am DESPITE a lot of people.
im where i am now because of hard fucking work and sacrifice.

fuck anybody who says otherwise.


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Shawn P
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« Reply #719 on: January 12, 2012, 01:50:33 PM »

As someone who is generally new to indie game development, it makes me somewhat sad that there is all of this...well, unhappiness in regards to a lot. Of course, it would be foolish to think that I'd only find happiness and joy.

But there's a lot of anger all over. Oh well. I guess it happens.
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