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[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

If I could rattle off a list of strong, completed 3D games, I might then be able to dig around and find the engines they were using. More research needed by me, I think.

Regarding rattling off completed 3D commercial indie games, there's MDickie's games (http://mdickie.com), which were made in BlitzBasic or Blitz3D or something, and there's Darwinia and Armadillo Run. There's also that game about a rabbit -- Lugaru or something? And Toribash. Those are all pretty good, and fairly commercially successful. There are probably many more that Derek Yu or Tim W could name, if you ask them, they're far more familiar with indie games than I am.

[Garthy]

hm.. let's stick to facts.
you started a thread with large posts about a technical topic without doing any appropriate evaluation of the technical options you wanted to know more about first. right?
isn't it better to make some profound testing beforehand to avoid all that trouble?

Not sure I can agree with the sentiment here. If you were lost in a city and asked someone for directions, would you think it a bit unfair if they publicly disparaged you for not having mapped the city first?

I am, essentially, lost. I ran into unexpected behaviour in what appeared to be two of the stronger alternate 3D engine choices to my own. Confused by the results, I thought I would ask around to get additional perspective on the issue, including hopefully the experiences of others, so I can determine what to try next.

I am confident that I have not been unreasonable.

My preference would be to spend time discussing 3D engines, where possible.

to keep objective: it would make more sense if we could really help eachother out (man, that's indie business ). we could test a little engine_test.exe for you if you want to, and post some results, like if it works and how good it does with the features you would like to use..
toastie's completely right!
but all this technical sophistry isn't worth it anyway

I'm not quite sure which engine you're offering to try out, but I should be fine for now. I thank you for your offer.

btw: i finally continue whith my own code. python is ok, panda is ok. really almost all worked on the first try. but i don't like this bloatedness of these engines... a small hello_panda.exe is at least 24 mb large, cause python has to be packed with it. it's a really nice engine, it features all a solid 3d game needs (man, Disney developed that thing). but i felt too much like user...

Definitely wanting to explore this in depth. The finished-commercial-games thing for Panda3D is a big plus.

but that's a really individual opionion. someone else may like that, so it wouldn't make much sense to ask about that in the forum. all what others can tell you is about *facts* and *their* experience... clear questions: clear answers

Nothing wrong with individual opinions- eg. X works well for me, Y is a piece of crap, Z has a huge learning curve but it's worth it, etc. In fact, that's one thing I'm really hoping to hear from people.

[muku]

There are probably many more that Derek Yu or Tim W could name, if you ask them, they're far more familiar with indie games than I am.

I just had the most brilliant idea:

http://db.tigsource.com/browse?genre=&platform=&max-price=&release=&min-rating=&developer=&publisher=&engine=&language=&tag=3d&sort_by=name&sort_dir=asc

Unfortunately you can't search for commercial games only, but the list isn't that long, so maybe it can help someone as a starting point for some more research.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Ah, there were a lot of them I forgot about. Mr. Robot is a big one, and Penumbra.

I do know that The Graveyard uses Unity, although I suspect that its sales (at $5 each) didn't make back the cost of that engine (which is around $8000?).

[Garthy]

That is brilliant!

Holy crap, right under my nose too. Thankyou.

I just had the most brilliant idea:

http://db.tigsource.com/browse?genre=&platform=&max-price=&release=&min-rating=&developer=&publisher=&engine=&language=&tag=3d&sort_by=name&sort_dir=asc

[Garthy]

Thanks for those.

Darwinia and Mr Robot, for both, were they internally-developed engines? I seem to remember some talk in each case that suggests that. Whoever corrects me first for being completely wrong about that, please be gentle. I'm also not sure- was the Mr Robot one 3D? It's been a while since I've played, and IIRC they might have been able to get away without- much as Head Over Heels did. Again, I am almost certainly completely wrong- please correct me if you know.

Assuming I'm not full-of-it on the engines: I think Introversion and Moonpod outnumber me by a factor of three or so. But they're still not huge, and they managed to do it, so perhaps it is attainable. It would be interesting to know if they plan to stick with their engines, or plan to use someone elses next time.

Had to search for Toribash as I have no idea at all what it uses (played, yes, details of engine, not known), though some posts suggest they are looking to improve it, which suggests own-design.

I'd never heard of Armadillo Run (sorry). After a quick squiz at the page, I fear I may need to "test" the capabilities of the engine.

Haven't heard of "Penumbra", and Google shows at least two products, so I'm not sure which one to check out.

As for an $8k engine... out of budget, out of budget!

Regarding rattling off completed 3D commercial indie games, there's MDickie's games (http://mdickie.com), which were made in BlitzBasic or Blitz3D or something, and there's Darwinia and Armadillo Run. There's also that game about a rabbit -- Lugaru or something? And Toribash. Those are all pretty good, and fairly commercially successful. There are probably many more that Derek Yu or Tim W could name, if you ask them, they're far more familiar with indie games than I am.

Ah, there were a lot of them I forgot about. Mr. Robot is a big one, and Penumbra.

do know that The Graveyard uses Unity, although I suspect that its sales (at $5 each) didn't make back the cost of that engine (which is around $8000?).

[ColossusEntertainment]

it's unrealistic to make full blown 3d games as solo/newbie indie game developer, regardless of what engine you use. there's so much else to get right. the assets, the concept, gamplay design, mechanics, levels, testing, shipping... so if you get lost it isn't a matter of choosing the right engine... it's about balance in first place.

I think this sums it up perfectly. Don't spend too long choosing engines. Pick one and stick with it, and get the job done.

[Garthy]

0rel, your analogy-fu is strong.

I would not try to build a skyrise with my hands but I can certainly spend my time creating the nicest room in the city.

To continue with your analogy, I have biked to the next city, more than once, and on more than one bike. I've made that trip, and had that experience. I've even built my own bike for the journey. Yes, sometimes it is about that journey, but after the first trip, sometimes it is more what you do when you reach your destination.

In my time I have looked up in the sky at those huge planes passing me overhead, and wondered what it would be like to fly in one. And in planning my next trip, I have swung by the airport to check them out. Minutes after arriving, I stand there, marveling at the beautiful planes, gracefully taking off and landing with mesmerising synchronicity.

Until one slams into the terminal.

And on that note, I think I should depart for the day.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Thanks for those.

Darwinia and Mr Robot, for both, were they internally-developed engines? I seem to remember some talk in each case that suggests that. Whoever corrects me first for being completely wrong about that, please be gentle. I'm also not sure- was the Mr Robot one 3D? It's been a while since I've played, and IIRC they might have been able to get away without- much as Head Over Heels did. Again, I am almost certainly completely wrong- please correct me if you know.

Assuming I'm not full-of-it on the engines: I think Introversion and Moonpod outnumber me by a factor of three or so. But they're still not huge, and they managed to do it, so perhaps it is attainable. It would be interesting to know if they plan to stick with their engines, or plan to use someone elses next time.

Had to search for Toribash as I have no idea at all what it uses (played, yes, details of engine, not known), though some posts suggest they are looking to improve it, which suggests own-design.

I'd never heard of Armadillo Run (sorry). After a quick squiz at the page, I fear I may need to "test" the capabilities of the engine.

Haven't heard of "Penumbra", and Google shows at least two products, so I'm not sure which one to check out.

I remember hearing that Armadillo Run uses OpenGL, but I don't know if it uses a specific library or not. Here's a video of it in action:



Penumbra is this one: http://frictionalgames.com/site/penumbramedia/

But as others have implied in this thread, the engine is usually the least of your worries when designing a game. Fewer people can make a good game than can make a good 3D engine, and they're different enough talents that trying to do both at once seems almost superhuman, it'd be like trying to both invent a new musicial instrument and master musical composition on that instrument, or trying to invent a new form of digital camera while also making a great movie with that new camera.

So if you're dead-set on 3D, I'd recommend BlitzBasic/Blitz3D as a start, this game seems to be doing incredibly brilliant stuff with that engine, as technologically dated as it is: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=398.0

If a game that looks like that can be made on an engine that costs $50, there's hope for great indie games outside of 2D.

EDIT: On second thought, MDicke's rant that 0rel linked to seems to imply it has problems running in Vista? I'd investigate that first before deciding to use it if it were me. It may concievably just be the way MDickie uses it rather than a problem with the engine itself, though.

[ColossusEntertainment]

Fewer people can make a good game than can make a good 3D engine

That's very true. It's much easier to make 3D engines than it is to make games.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Hm? I said it was easier to make a good 3D engine than a good game, not easier to make a game than a 3D engine...

As an analogy, it's easier to write a poem than to build a house of cards, but it's harder to write a good poem than to build a good house of cards.

[ColossusEntertainment]

not easier to make a game than a 3D engine...

I know, that was my addition :-) And I believe that's the way it is. 3D engines are pretty easy to make. Games are hard 

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Well, very simple games aren't that hard -- I could create a simple puzzle or platform game in a matter of hours. It won't be very good or polished, but it'll be a game.

[ColossusEntertainment]

And I can get some polys on screen in a matter of minutes, but that doesn't make it much of an engine, does it?

I don't think we really need to turn this into a discussion of the definition of "a game" 

My point is, that it is unfortunate that the technology side of game development has been given so much attention in recent years. This was especially apparent when I worked in the games industry, where the engine programmers where usually consider a bit cooler and higher status than games programmers, when it really should be the other way around. I've worked with both the game programming side of things and the engine side of things, and it's very clear that engine/tech programming is much easier. It's time consuming, but not all that hard. In my opinion.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I think very simple games are games. Cactus's games are definitely games, even though most of them were made in a very short time (in some cases less than a single day I think?).

But I suppose an engine to put some polygons on the screen can be done quickly by people who know how to do it. I don't -- I couldn't even code anything as simple as Star Fox's 3D. As an aside, a 3D engine to allow people who don't know anything about 3D programming to create games like Star Fox would be nice...

[ColossusEntertainment]

Cactus's games are definitely games, even though most of them were made in a very short time (in some cases less than a single day I think?).

Some people are just way too talented 

I couldn't even code anything as simple as Star Fox's 3D. As an aside, a 3D engine to allow people who don't know anything about 3D programming to create games like Star Fox would be nice...

Sounds like a challenge   What would you say such an engine needs to be able to do?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Offhand I can think of a few things (keep in mind I've never worked with 3D before, but this is what I imagine would make it easy to use for me):

Able to create and display objects simply by defining their vertexes in a 3D coordinate system. I believe all objects in Star Fox are made up of triangles? Or are some squares? I'd have to check.

Such objects won't have any texture, but each polygon can have any plain color.

Once created, such objects could be moved (with a speed and direction -- I think that's called a vector?), rotated, copied, and destroyed.

Optionally, an editor which will allow you to create those 3D objects in real time, so that you can piece together triangles to create an interesting looking object, and save it to file, and that file could then be loaded from the game.

Able to define the location of the camera and move it around.

Able to set the background image (for the sky in the distance).

Though I wouldn't want to distract you from the demakes contest (if you're entering that?).

[Ivan]

I've been working on a 3D engine for the past few months and I have to say, it's alot of work, alot of which is trying to come up with a nicely abstracted design that would allow for platform and API-independent renderers. Making an editor, which I am also doing, is just as much work, all of which amounting to pretty much a fulltime job.

In the end though I have to say, programming actual game logic after doing complex engine work seems like peanuts, though often you don't actually have time for it in the end. For me though, the engine work is just as enjoyable as actual game code, but it's different for different people.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I don't think programming game logic is very hard, but programming game logic is around 5% of making a game. The hard part of making a game is design work: designing the basic mechanics and getting the feeling right, designing the inhabitants of the game and their behavior, designing the levels or areas of the game, and above all balancing the game.

As an example, when I made Immortal Defense, it took me 6 months. The first two weeks of that was actually programming the game logic. The rest was creating all the individual enemies, levels, Points, and tweaking and balancing and polishing all that. The hardest parts of making that game for me was not the game logic, but:

- Balancing each of the 11 Points (tower types) against one another, to be sure that they were all distinct (including visually distinct), had different uses, had complementary uses, and making it so no one strategy or one setup of Points worked in all situations.

- Creating each of the 27 enemies, making them distinct and interesting, giving them behavior that gave them each their role in the game.

- Creating each of the 100 missions (with 50 more missions going to be added with v1.1), making each one progressively more difficult than the last but keeping them varied and challenging the player in a different way each level, while also tying the level in some way to the story of that level (and vice versa).

- Creating the 6 special attacks of the mouse cursor, balancing them in terms of charge time and how they worked, making them work distinctly and be useful for different situations.

etc.

That stuff is 95% of the work of programming a game, and it's pretty hard.

[moi]

Programming an engine is fun because it's like a mind game.
Programming actual game is often tedious and boring especially when you waste 5 hours trying to fix that particular sprite movement,etc...