Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1411516 Posts in 69380 Topics- by 58436 Members - Latest Member: GlitchyPSI

May 01, 2024, 06:27:27 AM

Need hosting? Check out Digital Ocean
(more details in this thread)
TIGSource ForumsCommunityTownhallForum IssuesArchived subforums (read only)CreativeWritingEmergence 2: Passive Narrative
Pages: [1]
Print
Author Topic: Emergence 2: Passive Narrative  (Read 2862 times)
unsilentwill
Level 9
****


O, the things left unsaid!


View Profile WWW
« on: November 01, 2011, 09:26:17 AM »

Emergence and Game Design in general, .

We all know about the basics of storytelling, introduction exposition rising action climax decending action resolution protagonist antagonist blah. What's important to remember is that these are not the basics of storytelling, they are the basics of literary critiques. Critique to me is lovely people who just wanted to read books tricked into/paid to wrap words around what an author already brilliantly described by writing the book.

The point is the descriptive words are not and should never be a checklist for a good story despite what Joesph Campbell blathered (I prefer John over Joe anyday for a good story). Fitting a story to a formula is not only boring but ingenuine and perpetuates stereotypes for characters as you force people into certain roles. It is supremely important to consider how characters and events interact in your story for a game because you are dropping a free agent in with what are usually flat rigid characters and something will always break.

The characters and structures of your story have connotations (the emotional and imaginative association surrounding a word) that should be considered when writing.  Things like Hero, Villain, Princess, Barkeep, Wizard can be used as descriptions but never as the entirety of who the characters are. With emergent design for writing, always use adjectives and verbs over nouns.

A brilliant example of this in action is Shakespeare. Most of us read him in school instead of seeing the play so we see again and again "Fool" (usually the fool has a name, which is better but anyway). Our connotations with that word end up shaping (pre-judging) how he will act and respond. In a play it may be done with costume. But the character was not written as a "fool" but as human person reacting under the job description fool, which makes all the difference.

So, that's what I think is wrong with the way people think about writing stories. Too much structure, not enough character depth. So, without a plot structure how does one go about writing a story? Put characters in an environment and videotape them.

It's that simple. It's like an ant farm. All of my favorite writers talk about writing as if the characters are real people interacting inside their head. Characters are driven by personal motivations and interact with each other, sometimes changing or not changing depending on the author's understanding of each character as a person. As with any emergent system, the interactions between characters become more and more complex to the point where even the best writer could never have predicted them. Stories become interesting as the characters change and react differently to new people or new situations. As for conflicts, without planning it out you will see them develop as the characters pursue their simple desires even against those who you would originally put as allies.

One last note on emergent storytelling is that along with no set structure of events there should not be an end in mind. I figured this was the case with the director of Breaking Bad and I was right. When writing it seems most people plot out the whole story first and just have the characters (and the player) go on the rails of a theme park until they reach the end. By removing the track and the end what drives the story is only the interactions of the characters and their environment. The actions become realistic and the story can end when you feel the characters have run their course, either after the climax, ten years after the climax, or with their sons or whatever.

Letting go and giving your characters and the player freedom will almost guarantee a unique and brilliant story, as long as the characters have personal motivation (history, values, etc.) and the environment (politics, economy, health) are realistic.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 07:41:47 PM by unsilentwill » Logged

unsilentwill
Level 9
****


O, the things left unsaid!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 07:13:23 AM »

I knew I should have used pictures. Anyone have anything to say?

http://irrationalgames.com/insider/irrational-interviews-9-guillermo-del-toro-part-1/

Here's a very interesting talk about not designing through function, rather through character. Despite Hellboy, Del Toro is one of my favorite directors and knows exactly what he's talking about.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 01:31:07 AM by unsilentwill » Logged

Gainsworthy
Level 10
*****

BE ATTITUDE FOR GAINS...


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2011, 05:32:52 PM »

I don't think lack of pictures is your big problem. I know you wanted to write eloquently and all, but your opening post just comes across as a big old slab of text.

Your first two paragraphs flop around without adding much to your argument, and then you slide straight into "emergence and starting in the middle". Also, seems like you can't make up your mind whether you're writing a super informal forum post or an essay.

Edit that post, sir. Cut it down to a manageable entrée or structure it so your argument flows. Meanwhile, I'll re-read it and see if I can formulate some thoughts on the topic.
Logged
Ben_Hurr
Level 10
*****


nom nom nom


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 06:38:21 PM »

I think I can sum this massive tl;dr.

1. Create a defined setting.
2. Create fleshed out characters plausible to this setting.
3. Create a starting point.
4. Imagine how they would react to each other and or situations
5. Repeat 4 until finished.  Wink
Logged
eclectocrat
Level 5
*****


Most of your personality is unconscious.


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 04:50:38 AM »

Yeah, I get it. It's nice and fuzzy and uses the word emergence, but... will it be interesting? I think that anything interesting that emerges from character interaction will begin to resemble the heros journey after a while anyways. Most of the interactions will yield boring daily fluff. Good for setting up an environment, but does not a story make.
Logged

I make Mysterious Castle, a Tactics-Roguelike
Sniperrr
Level 0
**



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2012, 01:24:43 AM »

Quote
Yeah, I get it. It's nice and fuzzy and uses the word emergence, but... will it be interesting? I think that anything interesting that emerges from character interaction will begin to resemble the heros journey after a while anyways. Most of the interactions will yield boring daily fluff. Good for setting up an environment, but does not a story make.

Maybe if you have all your characters be totally ordinary people that's what you'll end up with. But if they're say, murderers locked on a cruise ship being invaded by aliens or something else that's already interesting to start with, then you might be able to sit back and let the characters write the story for you - if you're good with characters.

That's basically what happens when people play tabletop RPGs really. To be honest, most of the ones I've seen or been involved in have actually worked out really with the stories because everyone just focused on one character, developed the shit out of them and threw them at each other. Might make it harder to do it as just one person, but still has potential.
Logged

unsilentwill
Level 9
****


O, the things left unsaid!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2012, 01:39:54 AM »

Thanks for the first post defending my dumb thesis. Boring daily fluff, if in the right environment or situation, as Sniperrr says, will suddenly become interesting. Mowing your law after you've witnessed a murder becomes a surreal mockery of routine, or after an affair it becomes a rationalization of home stability, depending on how you frame it.

And here's a note against the hero's journey thing, that's only the case if you plan everything. There maybe be no mentor, or a huge impossible mountain that requires characters to abandon their plans when things get too bad. That's the exciting part, it becomes actually impossible to predict what will happen. Failure becomes an option.

The key word, and what my first post tried to highlight is: DESIRE. It's why most games, even table-top-emergeotastic games have such awful stories, because the player desires either power or vengeance, and the characters and villains usually desire the same, opposite, or just 10 beaver pelts. Giving characters desires and motivations allows motivations to conflict, even in a normal boring scenario.

Thinking the way you guys do is why all games have to have dragons and space battles, because real conflict isn't interesting enough.
Logged

1982
Level 8
***



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2012, 04:08:34 PM »

Thinking the way you guys do is why all games have to have dragons and space battles, because real conflict isn't interesting enough.

There are lots of successful games that have very down to earth stories. I believe it only matters how you tell the story, not so much of what it is.

I agree with your starting post. I have some game design ideas built around that idea too.
Logged

unsilentwill
Level 9
****


O, the things left unsaid!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2012, 04:28:40 PM »

I wouldn't say a lot, all I can think of are some Wadget Eye and other old adventure games. It seems to be the minority, but I'd love some recommendations.
Logged

1982
Level 8
***



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2012, 04:35:06 PM »

I wouldn't say a lot, all I can think of are some Wadget Eye and other old adventure games. It seems to be the minority, but I'd love some recommendations.

I don't know because I don't play story driven games, but maybe LA Noire or Police Quest series
Logged

OddGoo
Level 0
***


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 07:23:31 PM »

These points remind me a bit of Horacio Quiroga's "Manual for the perfect story writer", whose tenth commandment I will translate here:

Do not think in your friends when writing, neither in the impression your story will make. Tell as if your story did not have any interest but for the small world of your characters, of which you could have been one. There is no other way to obtain life out of a story.

No pienses en tus amigos al escribir, ni en la impresión que hará tu historia. Cuenta como si tu relato no tuviera interés más que para el pequeño ambiente de tus personajes, de los que pudiste haber sido uno. No de otro modo se obtiene la vida del cuento."


Logged
Pages: [1]
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic