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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignLevel-up system for different creatures
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skullbox
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« on: November 21, 2011, 11:25:58 AM »

Hi!

I am working on a game which will contain a lot of different creatures and you will be able to both meet them in combat and play as them (pokémon-style). I wonder how I could distribute well balanced stats to all of them while keeping the game interesting with varied monsters.

I am tempted to use the following stats:

Health
Attack
Magic
Defense
Magic Defense
Speed

Then the following ststs that will be the same for all of them but can be modified with the help of equipment:

Accuracy
Critical
Evasiveness

EDIT: I forgot to mention that all creatures will have secondary stats as well such as: FireAtk, FireDef, ColdAtk, ColdDef, ShockAtk, ShockDef, PoisonAtk, PoisonDef,
StrikeDef, SlashDef, PierceDef


HERE IS THE LATEST VERSION OF THE STATS:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0Av9Rm4QqyNCbdFNCb3BFYmtFLU45V0pBTC14TkVEYVE&single=true&gid=0&output=html

So how do I make a monster library that can contain a low-level pink blob and a high level minotaur for example where both can level up so a level 30 blob can be somewhat of challenge for a level 10 minotaur for example.

My idea for now is to first give all monsters 30 points to distribute over their 6 primary stats. That would represent the monster's stats at level 1. Then depending on when I want players to engage them I will give them different levels. The stats are then multiplied by the creature's level.

For example the blob would have 1 in Attack and 3 in Magic, and the minotaur 6 in Attack and 1 in Magic. Then when I create maps in the game and place monsters, I would place level 1 blobs in low-level areas and level 20 minotaurs in higher level areas. So the minotaurs you would meet would actually have 20*6 in attack = 120 and the blob would have 1*1 = 2 in attack.

And if a player has a blob that they leveled up to level 30, it would have 30*1 = 30 in attack and 30*3 = 90 in magic, so a level 30 blob can still be a challenge for a level 20 minotaur.

What do you think? Can I improve this somehow and make it more interesting?

I also think that when you level up your creature there is a small difference in the amount stats increases each time (random value near the starting stats). So instead of increasing attack with 1 all the time, sometimes it can be 2 and sometimes 0.

I had an earlier post about ability systems here: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=21935
So creatures will have their unique set of abilities as well and can wear equipment.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 10:22:03 AM by skullbox » Logged

rivon
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2011, 02:39:32 PM »

How will the defense/attack and accuracy/evasion work? You, know. Just simple subtracting or percentages? etc.
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Tumetsu
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 05:37:56 AM »

Just some ideas:
Why accuracy, evasiveness etc. should be same for all creatures? I could imagine large, powerful creature with poor eyesight or fog like creature with high evasion percents. They don't need to scale up with levels though.

For stat growth depending on your game you may either use something like EV from Pokemon, add some random variation to stat growths. In Fire Emblem each character had probabilities for each stat. For example large creature might have 70% chance to raise its attack when leveling up, while having only 20% chance to raise its speed in each level up. Combine this with preset base-stats with possible random variation and you could get some interesting "individuals". Not really answer to your specific question, but I think it might be interesting.
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skullbox
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2011, 06:46:28 AM »

How will the defense/attack and accuracy/evasion work? You, know. Just simple subtracting or percentages? etc.

Right now the formula will be like this for a battle between monster A and monster B with the above mentioned stats such as Magic, Magic Defense etc.

Monster A casts a magic spell on monster B.

Magic damage = Amagic * a + (Aspelldamage * b * AspelltypeAtk * c) - (BmagicDef * d + BspellTypeDef * e)

Where a,b,c,d,e are constants which are given a random value between a specific range.

If the spell is Fireball then if the caster has more FireAtk it will do more damage but if the target has a good FireDef then it will absorb some of it.

I forgot to mention that all creatures will have these secondary stats as well such as: FireAtk, FireDef, ColdAtk, ColdDef, ShockAtk, ShockDef, PoisonAtk, PoisonDef,
StrikeDef, SlashDef, PierceDef


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skullbox
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2011, 07:02:35 AM »

Just some ideas:
Why accuracy, evasiveness etc. should be same for all creatures? I could imagine large, powerful creature with poor eyesight or fog like creature with high evasion percents. They don't need to scale up with levels though.

For stat growth depending on your game you may either use something like EV from Pokemon, add some random variation to stat growths. In Fire Emblem each character had probabilities for each stat. For example large creature might have 70% chance to raise its attack when leveling up, while having only 20% chance to raise its speed in each level up. Combine this with preset base-stats with possible random variation and you could get some interesting "individuals". Not really answer to your specific question, but I think it might be interesting.

I thought that if you could affect accuracy and evasion too much, it would affect the battles in the wrong way. Meaning that if you missed a hit and knew that you could get higher accuracy you would only think about that while playing and be irritated that you miss some times. Same thing with evasion, if someone evades your powerful attack that costed you a lot of mana. I mean the other stats affect as much, but the word "YOU MISSED" is such irritating to see =). But you are right that naturally bigger monsters should be worse at evading, and some creatures are better at hitting their target. Maybe I could add tinytiny variations on those stats for the different creatures. Because how fun would it be to have a giant monster on your side and it misses all the time?

I like the idea of increasing stats with some randomness, that will make the different creature's growth more interesting and level-up more exciting.

To be honest I haven't played the pokémon games that much ^^* so maybe I should check them out before asking questions here =). But those EV sounds interesting, I will read about them.
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skullbox
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2011, 02:09:23 PM »

Here is a first attempt at the stats for the first creatures in the game. "Landlubber" is the starting creature for the player which is a regular human pirate.

EDIT: Here is an updated google spreadsheet for the stats
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0Av9Rm4QqyNCbdFNCb3BFYmtFLU45V0pBTC14TkVEYVE&single=true&gid=0&output=html


The "Mega Ghoul" (temporary name) is a boss, so it gets more points to distribute on its stats, since you can't play as that creature.

I've set the approximate level that the creatures will have when you encounter them. These stats are also maximized, meaning that these stats would be the absolute maximum they could get if luck were on their side when the dice are rolled at level-up.  

I haven't set the magic resistances and regular attack type bonuses yet, will post it when I'm done.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 10:20:32 AM by skullbox » Logged

Cosr
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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2011, 09:06:00 PM »

Adding (approximately) the base stats of the monster at each level up seems like a rather steep power increase to me.

In particular, there is a huge increase in power between level 1 and level 2, because all the stats double.

Now, maybe you want this. The reasoning being that a level 2 monster is twice the level of a level 1 monster, so it should be twice as powerful. And a level 20 monster should be twice as powerful (twice the stats) of a level 10 monster.

On the other hand, it's only a single level between level 1 and 2. Maybe gaining a single level shouldn't result in such a huge increase in power.

It really all depends on what sort of feel you're going for with your leveling system. With such high relative increases in power, I would worry that there would be too much emphasis on level. As in, the only way to not be mauled by your opponents would be to make sure you're at the same level as them (or higher if you want to be the one doing the mauling).

With an increase in power that wasn't so steep I think there would be more opportunity for good tactics and smart use of skills to make a difference. It would allow a monster to stand a fair chance of winning against another monster that is only, say, a single level above them.
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rivon
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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2011, 08:35:08 AM »

I'd say take a look at the Pokemon system. It's pretty good and also proven that its fun...
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skullbox
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2011, 09:36:25 AM »

Adding (approximately) the base stats of the monster at each level up seems like a rather steep power increase to me.

In particular, there is a huge increase in power between level 1 and level 2, because all the stats double.

Now, maybe you want this. The reasoning being that a level 2 monster is twice the level of a level 1 monster, so it should be twice as powerful. And a level 20 monster should be twice as powerful (twice the stats) of a level 10 monster.

On the other hand, it's only a single level between level 1 and 2. Maybe gaining a single level shouldn't result in such a huge increase in power.

It really all depends on what sort of feel you're going for with your leveling system. With such high relative increases in power, I would worry that there would be too much emphasis on level. As in, the only way to not be mauled by your opponents would be to make sure you're at the same level as them (or higher if you want to be the one doing the mauling).

With an increase in power that wasn't so steep I think there would be more opportunity for good tactics and smart use of skills to make a difference. It would allow a monster to stand a fair chance of winning against another monster that is only, say, a single level above them.

I agree with you completely, it is way too steep, need to adjust it.
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skullbox
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2011, 09:41:51 AM »

I'd say take a look at the Pokemon system. It's pretty good and also proven that its fun...

Ok so I read about the pokémon system and it seems the creatures don't level up but instead their stats do. And if you defeat monsters with high speed your speed stat gain more xp, and if you defeat monsters with high strength your strength gain more xp etc...

Did I understand it right?

It is an interesting system but doesn't it lead players to stay in certain areas to grind up certain stats, or perhaps that is the "fun"?

EDIT: For me I see both good and bad sides with that system, the bad being the grinding in certain areas to improve a specific stat, the good being that you can customize a creature more. You can for instance take a blob which is good at magic but low strength in the beginning and grind it against strong creatures and pump up it's strength so that you can have a blob carrying heavy weapons. Other players will be surprised to see that combo and it will add a nice variation of creatures.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 09:58:38 AM by skullbox » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2011, 11:51:30 AM »

No.

Dunno what you have read but I meant the system used in games like Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow/Gold/Silver etc... Pokemon level up and with each level up they gain something like 0-3 points to all of the stats. In the beginning all the pokemon have their stats a bit random. I think the level 3 pokemon (almost the lowest level in the game, AFAIK I've never seen level 1... level 2 only once or twice) start with the stats around 10-12. They of course have different stats, so for example some normal melee pokemon like Hitmonchan should have high ATTACK and associated stats while pokemon like Mew who has special attacks (special means more or less magic/not normal) should have high SPECIAL ATTACK. Someone defensive like Geodude should have high DEFENSE etc. And with each level up they should of course have the biggest stat gain in their type - so Mew should have biggest gain in the SPECIAL stats.
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skullbox
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2011, 12:01:51 PM »

No.

Dunno what you have read but I meant the system used in games like Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow/Gold/Silver etc... Pokemon level up and with each level up they gain something like 0-3 points to all of the stats. In the beginning all the pokemon have their stats a bit random. I think the level 3 pokemon (almost the lowest level in the game, AFAIK I've never seen level 1... level 2 only once or twice) start with the stats around 10-12. They of course have different stats, so for example some normal melee pokemon like Hitmonchan should have high ATTACK and associated stats while pokemon like Mew who has special attacks (special means more or less magic/not normal) should have high SPECIAL ATTACK. Someone defensive like Geodude should have high DEFENSE etc. And with each level up they should of course have the biggest stat gain in their type - so Mew should have biggest gain in the SPECIAL stats.

Hehe ok, then I misunderstood completely, read it from here: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Effort_values

Then instead it is the same thing as my original idea but with less increase in stats per level?


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rivon
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2011, 12:08:38 PM »

Well, I didn't know about this thing. So yeah, fighting one type of monster increases one stat more than others, though I have to say, you really don't ever notice it in the game. It doesn't have that big effect. And your other stats are still increasing normally.
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rivon
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2011, 12:09:57 PM »

Just download some gameboy emulator, Pokemon Red ROM and try it for yourself, though I warn you, it's very very addictive cause the game is just awesome Smiley
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 12:54:58 PM by rivon » Logged
Cosr
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2011, 05:35:54 PM »

Then instead it is the same thing as my original idea but with less increase in stats per level?

Depending on how much you wanted (or didn't want) to change your level system, rather than lowering the stat increase per level, since your numbers are already pretty low, you might consider just having a higher baseline at level 1. For example, it might be enough to simply add 10 or something to all stats at level 1.

(so a Landlubber would have attack 10 + 3 * 1 = 13 at level 1, 10 + 3 * 2 = 16 at level 2, etc. with whatever random variations to stat increase you decide to add)

This could be a simple way of decreasing the relative power gain for a level up, particularly at the early levels, and wouldn't require a vast reworking of the system.
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