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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperArt (Moderator: JWK5)The Uncanny Valley. Fact or Fiction?
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Author Topic: The Uncanny Valley. Fact or Fiction?  (Read 35528 times)
increpare
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« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2008, 08:02:27 AM »

In summary, having a title does not turn your bad experiments into good ones.
Encore.  Have some cake, I love Cake.

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deadeye
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« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2008, 01:40:47 PM »

I ran this by someone with tertiary qualifications in human brains. This was her opinion.



For her to jump to conclusions that the person who made this theory is a racist, and then use the term "nigras and whiteys," just... well, I don't know.

It is a homebrew theory! The only test ever performed was observing whether small groups of male and female infants shown a mobile or a human face were more inclined to watch one or the other. The study was not double-blind, had no controls and various attempts to duplicate the study have produced essentially random results.

In addition to being unverified, it is flat out contradicted by evidence that we do have: neither men or women perform better or worse at math than the other once educational constraints are controlled for, 47% of all bachelor's degrees in math in North America are handed out to women and, despite women's enrollment rates in the sciences being somewhat lower, there is no evidence that women perform any worse than men in the field.

All of these theories of biological determinism based on sex have a hell of a lot of explaining to do for why, if men are more inclined towards 'systemized' thought, women seem to do just as well when social conditions (class and environment) are controlled for.

In summary, having a title does not turn your bad experiments into good ones.

His experiment may be flawed (and I definitely believe it is), but I still think the theory has merit, and deserves further investigation.  And the fact that either sex is just as capable of learning a technical skill is proof only of intellectual equality, not necessarily of inherent male or female tendencies.  Inclinations toward emotional or systemic modes of thinking don't necessarily define overall intellectual capability.

Not to mention there is an abundance of scientific observation noting distinct differences in brain activity between males and females that indirectly supports the theory, and is available for peer review.

So yes, socially speaking there is equality between the sexes.  But on a biological level, to say the brains of men and women are wired the same is a mistake.
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« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2008, 02:11:53 PM »

I'm gonna try something weird here and "rerail" this topic.

I do believe in The Uncanny Valley, from what I've seen in some games. People keep bringing up FF12, which confuses me considering that none of the characters in that game are anywhere near the uncanny valley to me. Maybe there's a wider or thinner Valley depending on the person?

The worst of the Uncanny Valley that I've seen is in Guitar Hero 3. It has some of the stupidest characters I've ever seen, and they really begin to piss me off WTF

NOTE: I'm pretty sure this is not a thread about racism or sexism. These two topics are cannon-fodder for trolling, so I would recommend staying away from them in the future.
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Chris Whitman
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« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2008, 04:21:36 PM »

His experiment may be flawed (and I definitely believe it is), but I still think the theory has merit, and deserves further investigation.  And the fact that either sex is just as capable of learning a technical skill is proof only of intellectual equality, not necessarily of inherent male or female tendencies.  Inclinations toward emotional or systemic modes of thinking don't necessarily define overall intellectual capability.

But there's no evidence that 'emotional' and 'systemic' are even dichotomous. How is a preclusion to read and understand human emotions and feelings at odds with and mutually exclusive to a preclusion to think in abstract systems? Sure, you can present 'opinions' that certain people seem more rational and certain people seem more emotionally savvy, but I know a lot of people who are both and a lot of people who are actually neither good at understanding systems nor feelings.

Personally, I have no problem understanding complex systems: I'm an honours math student with a high GPA, but I also consider myself to be a sensitive and understanding person. Many of the smartest people I know are also the most emotionally sensitive, and if anything I'd be more likely to point out a correlation, rather than an exclusivity between the 'emotional' and 'systemic' thinking. I understand that my personal observation does not constitute a scientific theory, but if a scientific theory is flatly contradicted by my personal observation I would expect a verifiable reason why this is so. If shit starts falling up instead of down, it will be time to take a very hard look at this 'gravity' business.

As a scientific theory, you're asking me to accept (or even just entertain, I suppose) the idea that a vague and nondescript dichotomy between brain types which cannot even be demonstrated to exist may apply in different proportions to the different sexes when it is flatly contradicted by observable evidence. I'm not being an egalitarian zealot here: what you're saying is genuinely about as reasonable as asking me to entertain the theory that maybe unicorns are real.

Not to mention there is an abundance of scientific observation noting distinct differences in brain activity between males and females that indirectly supports the theory, and is available for peer review.

So yes, socially speaking there is equality between the sexes.  But on a biological level, to say the brains of men and women are wired the same is a mistake.

The criticism of many observed FMRI differences between men and women is that there is insufficient context to judge whether these are truly 'biologically hardwired' or simply developmental. Statistically, we have reams and reams of evidence about performance and preference which fit very well with a model based on development and socialization but are simply not explained by the idea that men and women are hardwired with these different preferences and skills. In fact, we have historical and cross-cultural evidence that flatly contradicts many of our presuppositions on masculine and feminine identities which are, to an enormous extent, quite clearly based on our modern social concepts.

It is obviously false to say that there are absolutely no differences in male and female physiology or brain chemistry: women have separate hormonal responses relating to child-birth and child-rearing which are not present in men, for one. On the other hand, it is then very easy to take something which is of an ambiguous origin and chalk it up to being "just how men/women are". There's no evidence that men are more rational and women are more emotional given equal opportunity for education and equal socialization. I can't see most of this as anything other than an untenable extension of bad science used to justify an irrationally discriminatory world view.
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« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2008, 07:48:53 PM »

As much as I'd like to think that nurture is the only deciding factor in gender identity or social development, I just can't.  Sorry Undecided

And I don't think this theory has anything to do with promoting sexual stereotypes.  To the contrary, I think fear of promoting sexual stereotypes is the biggest reason the theory has such vehement detractors.  Political correctness shouldn't have a place in science.  It's about finding the truth... whether you like the truth or not is beside the point.

And yes, I'll give you the fact that there is no hard evidence to support the theory.  But there are observations that can be argued do.  And I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with this evidence that you say flatly contradicts it.

As you said, your own anecdotal evidence tells you the theory is wrong.  And as you rightly point out, that's not proof against.  I'd like to point out though that your own observations aren't contradicted by the theory, but rather you might be more or less a balance between the two systems of thought.  As for myself, my experience supports it.  Personally, I tend towards the system side of thinking.  I can relate emotionally to people fairly well for the most part, but I become uncomfortable when people express extreme emotion (either grief or joy).  Most of the women in my life have been nurturing, and most of the men have been calculating.  Though I know that doesn't constitute proof, faced with those observations I can't help but think there's more to it than just "that's the way everybody was raised."

So, does the theory need better evidence to support it's credibility?  Definitely.  But to dismiss it out of hand as the byproduct of antiquated notions of gender isn't doing anything to help matters.  There is no test for whether or not it's a theory arisen from sexist ideals.  But the theory itself is testable.  It just needs a better test.

And until then I'm comfortable with entertaining the notion that it might be true.  I can't help it... my personal experience tells me it is.  I guess I'm biased that way.  It seems more likely than the existence of unicorns, at any rate.
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« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2008, 09:24:08 PM »

Not to be a dick, but it looks like what you're saying is that you're more inclined to accept a scientifically unverified, essentially made-up theory because it seems reasonable, even though there is fairly solid evidence contradicting it.

In 2000, women received 38% of math bachelor's degrees. Now they receive 47%. Similarly, women in 2000 were significantly more likely than they are now to express beliefs that women performed more poorly in scientific disciplines. If men are really more able to perform rational functions then women, the chances of the observed statistics occurring, given the number of degrees in the sample, are mind-bogglingly low.

A Brown University study in 1999 found that any reduced capacity of women to solve presented math problems vanished when men were not present during the testing. A control group of  women tested on other subject matter for which there was no performance stereotype did not deviate regardless of whether or not men were present.

A committee at the University of Miami in 2006 found that girls were already aware of sexual stereotypes surrounding women's supposedly reduced abilities in math by the third grade.

You say that people believe that differences in rational versus emotional tendencies are ignored because of the fear of promoting stereotypes. I hear this argument time and time again, but it is not a rationally grounded argument, it is a talking point. The scientific evidence appears to suggest that any disparity in rational function between men and women is actually just because of these still prevalent stereotypes and that, as the perception that women are less rational diminishes, so does the corresponding decrease in test scores. If that's what the scientific evidence suggests, then who are the real zealots here?

Look, you can believe what you want. I'm hammering this one into the ground because I think these beliefs are not only incorrect but harmful. I think you're wrong. I don't hold it against you personally, but I really think you should look at why you believe these things to be true and weigh the scientific evidence accordingly. Remember that we can find as much evidence in concert with our own theories as possible, but when we find disparity, it can't just be explained away by hand-waving.
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« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2008, 09:26:49 PM »

Feel free to post more thoughts if you'd like, obviously, but I think I've made my point and I am going to step down from talking about this further, because from here on out it is likely to get a bit flamey.
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« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2008, 02:36:45 AM »

The worst of the Uncanny Valley that I've seen is in Guitar Hero 3. It has some of the stupidest characters I've ever seen, and they really begin to piss me off WTF
Curious. Maybe there's more expectation of humanity when a character is in your peripheral vision like when your attention is focused on the colored gems. Or maybe that's just because Activision sucked all of the heart and soul out of Harmonix's designs. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2008, 10:15:55 AM »



just stare at it for 5 seconds, and you'll see: it's lifeless! don't you? i hope so.

Actually.... if you hadn't told me that this was a CG image (and if it hadn't come up within the context of this debate), I'm pretty sure I couldn't have told that this wasn't a real person. With your first one, it's pretty obvious, but this one? As far as I'm concerned this could be a photograph.
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medieval
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« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2008, 12:31:45 PM »

Yeah, maybe just a bad actress.
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« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2008, 01:39:48 PM »

I didn't fully understand the article but technically isn't this a photograph of a real person? Don't the digital cameras just take a bunch of photos from many angles and combine them to create the 3D image?
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« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2008, 06:53:52 PM »

Holy crap, that IS huge. Shocked Thanks for linking!
And this fits well with Carmack's vision of sparse voxels data structures being the future (http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=485272&cid=22733726).
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« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2008, 10:44:55 AM »

Here's some video from that auto motion capture face-rig thing: http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4557935.ece

I bet it'd still be creepy if they used it with a baby though.
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« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2008, 10:32:45 PM »

I've been playing MySims (Wii) for work research, and the not-quite-human faces, laughs, and expressions freak the hell out of me. I didn't have a problem when I played Animal Crossing with my sister years ago, but this game is disturbing.
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