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[gimymblert]

I would also point that damage as the condition for failure is a poor mechanics in smash bros like. The reason smash bros work so well is that damage is a resource with no clear indication of winning.

While attack are still the primary tools for winning, their functions shift according to situation. The same attack can be used to ramp up damage, eject the character, control space, dodge, protection, countering, toss the opponent to a desired spot. But only ejecting is decisive, every other functions is to manage upper hand to that goal. Having high damage is not a decisive failure, actually it's an opportunity, the opponent can be more confident and try to deal eject type strategy, this is something you could take advantage to predict his next move and go into a favorable spot. Basic strategy is being voluntary cornered to an edge and the opponent try a smash attack, you dodge behind him leaving him open to an ejection, of course this is something the opponent can anticipate and retaliate (which is a full yomi situation).

The main aesthetic of smash bros is not damage dealing but controlling space. Space is what define failure (out of screen) and whole strategy revolve only around this (edge guarding).

Most smash clone are half split in the two aesthetics and succeed at none. IF we are going into damage aesthetics we need more thought on it. Smash is as spammy and shallow when shift to damage type gameplay.

EDIT:

Let us consider already implemented movement category:

Simple movement
JUMP

Normal ground attack + DI
normal air attack + DI


special ground attack + DI
special air attack + DI

guard
items (category of items?)

DI = direction influence (up, side and down)

Suggestion: Maybe "down DI" should have a functional relation with guarding (can be combo after contact)

[-Frikman-]

you guys don't seem to like guarding too much. yeah, it stills pretty useless but consider that it has just been implemented. for now i still think it's very useful on the edges if you're playing against a fast character (specially against Nikujin) or if you're coming back after a hard hit and you don't have your 3rd jump to dodge someone who's waiting (in that case the only chance you have is getting to the floor and inmediately guard =D). 

[Soulliard]

This is an incredible discussion, and one that needs to happen. I'll post more on it later, after I've had time to think about it a bit more.

Here's a few things I've taken from it:
-Attacks should come out faster but have have more end lag. This is especially true with the earliest characters, such as Naija. Their moves will need to be modified.
-Attacks should have more clearly-defined roles. Some should be useful for racking up damage, some should be for killing, some should be for area control, etc. Again, this will require going through the movelists and updating them.
-If guarding is not a viable option, I could remove the chip damage. This would require that each character have some counter for guarding, though, especially once timed battles are implemented. Every character currently has at least one unblockable move, but some of them are slow or unreliable. Would this change be doable with the current dynamics? Or would it require every character to have a grab (or the equivalent)?
-Alternately, characters could just have shields that break.
-Dodging is still an option on the table.
-Contrary, is the counter move you had in mind similar to Turner's counter, but without much damage or knockback, simply leaving you in a superior position?

[-Frikman-]

hey, as i said some days ago, don't you think you can add and update some stuff besides from playability tweaks? some items (*cough*mines*cough), sprite updates (*cough*Xoda*cough*) and maybe a new character (*cough*Spelunker*cough*) wouldn't be bad, right ? Right !?

[Soulliard]

Yeah, I just worked on the engine tweaks first since they affect everything else. For the next few releases, I'll try to stagger changing old stuff with the addition of new stuff.

[Contrary]

I was thinking mainly that the opponent is stunned for a bit. A canned counter attack would work as well, but wouldn't be as dynamic. For example a player might eschew guaranteed damage so they can try throwing out a slower, non guaranteed but unblockable and more damaging attack. Or they might elect to reposition, or grab an item, etc. etc.

[-Frikman-]

a bug i taped yesterday. the description of the bug's on the video, so be sure to read it. btw this happened on 1.5 too but since i forgot it (because the lack of playing) i didn't posted anything (sorry  )

[Soulliard]

Could you describe the bug? It looks like the attack's not connecting, but it's hard to tell from the video.

Is it just the reflector that doesn't connect, or is it all of Iji's attacks?

What were you doing prior to triggering the bugs? In particular, what attacks was Iji using, and which ones hit the other player?

[-Frikman-]

i described the stuff on the video, but i guess it was too vague.
-it seems to happen only with the reflector
-dunno what i was doing, i was just playing like always and when i did the reflector that happened (more than once)
-she was using the reflector
-all other attacks can hit the enemies. once you get stuck you can't control iji unless someone hits you, after that all attacks work fine, including reflector (unless you get stucked again o.o).
for now it seems only like an Iji bug (i tested with other characters and it didn't happened)

[Soulliard]

Are you losing control of Iji, so her attack just loops continuously?

[-Frikman-]

yup. this happens until someone hits you, after that all it's normal again (but if you are not lucky you can bug again)

[Soulliard]

It has been fixed for the next release.

[Soulliard]

New Version

This release mostly updates Nikujin. I also took the chip damage away from guarding. This is an experiment, since it could make guarding too effective. I'd especially like to hear your thoughts on this.

Changes:
-Engine: Reduced rate at which knockback increases with damage.
-Engine: Characters no longer take chip damage while guarding, or suffer as much knockback. This is an experiment to see if unique unblockable attacks are enough to balance guarding.
-Engine: Certain attacks can now be cancelled into other attacks.
-Nikujin: Besides ^S, attacks no longer have fixed knockback.
-Nikujin: Adjusted graphics, timing, damage, and knockback.
-Nikujin: The first two hits of A have higher cool-down, but can be cancelled into later hits. The final hit has less knockback and cooldown, allowing for easier combos.
-Nikujin: vA can now be cancelled into any other attack.
-Nikujin: The first two shots of S have higher cool-down, but can be cancelled into later shots.
-Bugfix: Fixed a glitch where character doesn't bounce when knockback is high.
-Bugfix: Iji's no longer gets stuck using ^A repeatedly.

[nothingxs]

New Version

This release mostly updates Nikujin. I also took the chip damage away from guarding. This is an experiment, since it could make guarding too effective. I'd especially like to hear your thoughts on this.

Changes:
-Engine: Reduced rate at which knockback increases with damage.
-Engine: Characters no longer take chip damage while guarding, or suffer as much knockback. This is an experiment to see if unique unblockable attacks are enough to balance guarding.
-Engine: Certain attacks can now be cancelled into other attacks.
-Nikujin: Besides ^S, attacks no longer have fixed knockback.
-Nikujin: Adjusted graphics, timing, damage, and knockback.
-Nikujin: The first two hits of A have higher cool-down, but can be cancelled into later hits. The final hit has less knockback and cooldown, allowing for easier combos.
-Nikujin: vA can now be cancelled into any other attack.
-Nikujin: The first two shots of S have higher cool-down, but can be cancelled into later shots.
-Bugfix: Fixed a glitch where character doesn't bounce when knockback is high.
-Bugfix: Iji's no longer gets stuck using ^A repeatedly.

As long as everyone has a throw, then guarding won't be too effective. RPS

[-Frikman-]

everyone on SSB has a throw and i don't see how blocking isn't effective, but if everyone gets a throw move on this game then characters that already have throws will be screwed up (unless Soulli makes this throw movements effective only against block). 

[DrOctapu]

we should make an indie brawl edition of super mario war, not as impressive, but it would be fun and more feasible

On that topic, there should be a memorial for Florian Hufsky, the guy who made SMW, in the credits. He died in 09.

[-Frikman-]

wait, what? that's just....too sad

[Soulliard]

[b]New Version[/b] 

This update mostly just adds sound effects and Winnitron support.

Changes:
-Engine: Changed default number of lives to 5.
-Knytt Falls: Temporarily removed due to ongoing changes. Sorry!
-Lyle: His attacks now have sound effects.
-Death Worm Desert: New music and sound effects.
-Items: Mostly have sound effects now.
-Jumper Arrow: Now gives infinite jumps while it lasts.
-Bugfix: Naija's >S now deals the correct knockback.
-Bugfix: Random stage selection now selects the Chzo stage.
-Other: Winnitron support added!

[-Frikman-]

oh can't you make an exe with the "Knytt Falls" stage for the dudes who like that stage ?

[ink.inc]

Not when they need a polished working version for Winnitron.

@Soulliard: I'm working on some guard sprites for Naija, Iji, and Xoda. Should be finished by the end of this week.