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[William Broom]

Sun Burst sounds pretty good to me, but I haven't actually seen it in the original game 

[Rostiger]

Well, it's not actually an attack, but it just lights up everything around her. For IB however we could make a sunburst that hits everyone within a certain radius..?

[shig]

I don't see any reason to make two attacks. That's double the animations, and they both serve the same basic effect.

Oh.

I thought Sun Burst would hit above her, and Destructive Song would hit above, behind and infront of her.

Well, it's not actually an attack, but it just lights up everything around her.

Is there any youtube vid that shows how that attack works in game?
So far, it sounds like adapting it to an attack would be changing the original content of the game.

[Soulliard]

Well, yes, technically we are changing the content a bit from the original game. Just like we've had to do with every character.

The charged Sun Form attack from Aquaria lights up an area for a time. Normally, it doesn't deal damage, but there is at least one enemy that is vulnerable to it.

Anyways, it makes as much sense as an attack as any of Naija's other remaining moves. Her only major damaging attacks are the energy form shot, beast form charge and nature form seed, all of which are already represented.

[shig]

The problem is that - if I get it right - we are changing something that was harmless to most enemies into her most damaging attack.

I haven`t played Aquaria, tho, so maybe I wouldn`t know how much we`d be "pushing" it when making that change.

[Soulliard]

We could always use her scream from Dual Form instead, (which actually was her most powerful attack). I'm more worried about the readability of that attack, though (plus only players who've actually beaten Aquaria would recognize it).

[mokesmoe]

Destructive Song doesn't exactly fit as an up move.
I say we should go with Sun Burst.

[Soulliard]

Or how about this...

We do something along the lines of how GK was reduced from two to one recovery moves. Her ^A is changed to whirlpool, but it no longer propels her upwards. Instead, it is just a quick aerial, like GK's stick spin.

Her ^S is changed to the upwards Beast Charge (I've been calling it Beast Jump).

That way she's down to only a single recovery move, and we don't have to add extra graphics. The only problem I see is that making one beast move a special and the others standard attacks might be a tad confusing. For consistency's sake, her ^S should be a recovery move, though.

One other change I'm considering is reducing the reach of her beast attacks (which is longer than it looks like it should be), and increasing their damage to compensate.

[KennEH!]

I know this is kinda off the current discussion, but that walk cycle bugs me.

[Contrary]

Well, hello, I'm new and all that.
This forum is quite nice, and this game is very pretty and has great potential.

My friend showed me this great work-in-progress and I played with it for a bit and I found Naija to be the most complete character (more than Bonesaw guy, she has a block), but there's a couple things that I think that good be improved upon.

I was just about to propose the exact ideas Soulliard just posted, so yeah, I think this is a great idea. But that raises the problem of having up B look like side A, which also recovers. A reduced Beast Jump/Charge range would make me sad, but it sounds like a fair idea. Perhaps someone could tweak the first attempt at a kick animation to make it more of a jump -> downward smash attack and this could be side A.

Her down A does pretty good damage with very little recovery time, making another down A or neutral A a viable option. I think that this is a kind of unfair risk/reward ratio. Perhaps a longer ending animation, perhaps long enough for the other player to get a free jab in? A higher launch and air stun time to compensate too, of course.

I like her side B, but I think that it's kind of OP. It has great range, power, spread, speed, and recovery time. How about replaying the firing animation backward at the end of it to make it a less spammable move?

I apologize for the wall of text, and if I'm over stepping any boundaries (I'm a noob an that sort of thing is inevitable, so I thought I might as well get it out of the way.)

I have a little bit of spriting experience, having sprite a bunch of weapons and several actors for Cortex Command, and I was wondering if you guys would know a good way to get all the frames from a gif so I can tinker with it?

Edit: 1. I love my default avatar lol.
2. So what's the consensus about block and grab and stuff? I read the thread but there wasn't a real definite answer. I don't think a game like this would work so well without a block and maybe a grab. A dodge would be great, too.

[Soulliard]

This forum is quite nice, and this game is very pretty and has great potential.

Glad to hear it.

Her down A does pretty good damage with very little recovery time, making another down A or neutral A a viable option.

This is intentional. It's not too difficult to escape vA spamming, though.

I might reduce the damage a bit, any way.

I like her side B, but I think that it's kind of OP. It has great range, power, spread, speed, and recovery time. How about replaying the firing animation backward at the end of it to make it a less spammable move?

It is already a pretty slow move (14 charge up and 12 cool down frames). There are better projectiles out there, but I do agree that it's pretty powerful. Naija is supposed to strike a balance between melee and range, though, so I don't want to make it to weak either.

I'll add 2 more cool down frames for now. But unless it proves to be a huge imbalance, I don't want to change it too much.

I apologize for the wall of text, and if I'm over stepping any boundaries (I'm a noob an that sort of thing is inevitable, so I thought I might as well get it out of the way.)

Not at all. I cherish every little piece of feedback I get.

I have a little bit of spriting experience, having sprite a bunch of weapons and several actors for Cortex Command, and I was wondering if you guys would know a good way to get all the frames from a gif so I can tinker with it?

Most image editing programs have this ability. The GIMP is free, and Game Maker's built-in sprite editor is pretty handy.

Edit: 1. I love my default avatar lol.

Now make you post in the Mancrib.

2. So what's the consensus about block and grab and stuff? I read the thread but there wasn't a real definite answer. I don't think a game like this would work so well without a block and maybe a grab. A dodge would be great, too.

Grabs are going to be character specific, usable as special moves. It requires too much spriting to justify a grab for every character.

Blocking was previously included, but removed because it was infrequently used. I can easily add it back in if people would like.

Characters move quickly enough that dodging is quite possible even without a special command for it. I don't think the addition is necessary.

[Contrary]

This is intentional. It's not too difficult to escape vA spamming, though.

I might reduce the damage a bit, any way.

It is already a pretty slow move (14 charge up and 12 cool down frames). There are better projectiles out there, but I do agree that it's pretty powerful. Naija is supposed to strike a balance between melee and range, though, so I don't want to make it to weak either.

I'll add 2 more cool down frames for now. But unless it proves to be a huge imbalance, I don't want to change it too much.

In truth, I have only spent a couple minutes actually playing this game with a person, but tomorrow I will force my friend to play with me and we'll see how it goes.

Grabs are going to be character specific, usable as special moves. It requires too much spriting to justify a grab for every character.

Blocking was previously included, but removed because it was infrequently used. I can easily add it back in if people would like.

Characters move quickly enough that dodging is quite possible even without a special command for it. I don't think the addition is necessary.

I play a lot of Soul Calibur and have played a great deal of SSB (With people at school) and SSBB (Not by my choice, SSBB is a terrible, terribly broken excuse for a game) and the lack of blocking ability is completely inconceivable to me. I think a lack of defense can only lead to an increase of offense.
A guy at the 8wayrun (Soul Calibur) forums had this in his signature.

Using doom combo is not skill. Avoiding doom combo is skill.
Using bubble shield is not skill. Advancing through bubble shield is skill.
Using shakable stun strings is not skill. Shaking stuns is skill.
Using mixups is not skill. Reading mixups is skill.
Now, I'm not saying not to do it. It's just a "For Your Info" thing.

It is simply my personal opinion but I think defense is much more intelligently engaging than offense, but I have little experience playing around with this, and as you say, perhaps movement is enough. I play around tomorrow.

I dunno. It's all just nitpicking in a stage where the foundation hasn't been laid out, but I'm a noob. It's what I do   

Most image editing programs have this ability. The GIMP is free, and Game Maker's built-in sprite editor is pretty handy.

Thanks for tip about Game Maker, I've been using MS Paint for all my CC sprites. I've never sprited anything in this style, but there's no harm in trying, and I'd like to somehow be a small part of this ambitious project. I'm allowed to try to do stuff, right?

Now make you post in the Mancrib.

My god this play is hilarious.

[Soulliard]

I play a lot of Soul Calibur and have played a great deal of SSB (With people at school) and SSBB (Not by my choice, SSBB is a terrible, terribly broken excuse for a game) and the lack of blocking ability is completely inconceivable to me. I think a lack of defense can only lead to an increase of offense.

I like SSBB. 

Anyways, there is at least some skill involved in attacking. Timing and positioning play a big role, especially in a platforming/fighting hybrid. So it's more than just mashing buttons (attacking in Soul Calibur is less skill-reliant, since timing and positioning are generally less important).

Also, most characters have a solid defensive special to make up for any lack of shield. Naija's S, Liero's >S, Turner's vS and Trilby's S and vS are all very good (although Turner's and Trilby's vS attacks are currently very difficult to use due to their lack of animation).

Like I said, though, I may decide to add traditional defending back in. Try using Naija against another player, and let me know how often you shield against non-projectile attacks.

As a final note, Indie Brawl is not going to be as technically complex or as skill-reliant as Soul Calibur. It will be more in line with the Smash Bros series, as you might expect.

I've never sprited anything in this style, but there's no harm in trying, and I'd like to somehow be a small part of this ambitious project. I'm allowed to try to do stuff, right?

And encouraged! 

[Contrary]

Anyways, there is at least some skill involved in attacking. Timing and positioning play a big role, especially in a platforming/fighting hybrid. So it's more than just mashing buttons (attacking in Soul Calibur is less skill-reliant, since timing and positioning are generally less important).

Kay sorry, point taken, lol.

Anyways, I played against some friends, and it seems all good. They got bored quickly though, so I dunno.
We played all Naija/Golden Knight 'cause they're the most complete and it seemed pretty balanced.

Naija
-vA is super easy to jump over, so it's pretty balanced. I think the recovery is perfect.
-The Beast form attacks "whiff" pretty bad- uh, when they miss they leave the opponent lots of time to retaliate, but have good range, damage etc, so it works out. A very small control over direction during the attack would be neato though.
-^B got little use from me dunno. Seems alright though. Give it invincibility frames, mebbe? Like a lot of attacks (read: basically all of them) in SSB64 had a couple of frames of invincibility during the startup or near the beginning of the attack.
->B is coolsauce, but very balanced. At long ranges, you're only going to hit one projectile, so it works out.
-vB is sweet, but the time it takes to summon makes it situational enough to work out. Mebbe vB while you're holding it triggers it at her feet? That would be a cool recovery and defensive move.

Golden Knight (Not sure if this belongs here, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to bump second page threads):
Generally solid. His B and >B are kind of annoying, but nothing game-breaking. I see you got rid of Quote and Curly, which works out cuz I don't know how they would contend with his vB.
Is it possible to make his A a two imput attack? It's kind of dangerous to throw it.

Wow, you guys must have tested a lot, based on these two characters, the game is looking pretty good. I was mistaken to compare it to SSB so much, it is a game with it's only logic and gameplay.

[Soulliard]

-The Beast form attacks "whiff" pretty bad- uh, when they miss they leave the opponent lots of time to retaliate, but have good range, damage etc, so it works out. A very small control over direction during the attack would be neato though.

The recovery time is actually pretty small, but since the attack is predictable, it is pretty easy to counter.

As an aside, you can reverse the direction of the beast charge with directional input while the attack is charging.

-^B got little use from me dunno. Seems alright though. Give it invincibility frames, mebbe? Like a lot of attacks (read: basically all of them) in SSB64 had a couple of frames of invincibility during the startup or near the beginning of the attack.

That move is pretty redundant. It's been switched to a standard aerial for the next release.

->B is coolsauce, but very balanced. At long ranges, you're only going to hit one projectile, so it works out.
-vB is sweet, but the time it takes to summon makes it situational enough to work out. Mebbe vB while you're holding it triggers it at her feet? That would be a cool recovery and defensive move.

The seed is a regular thrown item, so you can throw it at her feet with vA. Doing so launches you into the air (higher than a regular jump), which helps bolster her otherwise poor vertical recovery.

Golden Knight (Not sure if this belongs here, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to bump second page threads):

Bump away. It helps keep things organized.

Generally solid. His B and >B are kind of annoying, but nothing game-breaking. I see you got rid of Quote and Curly, which works out cuz I don't know how they would contend with his vB.

Of course, I'd prefer to include Quote in the game, but we just don't have permission. I don't think he'd be at too big a disadvantage if they went up against him, though. GK's vB doesn't work against all projectiles (those that pass through enemies, like GK's hockey stick, Liero's fan and Quote's Spirit King). I've handily beaten GK with Liero- it's tough, but not as impossible for a projectile specialist as you might think.

Is it possible to make his A a two imput attack? It's kind of dangerous to throw it.

That's a good idea.

Wow, you guys must have tested a lot, based on these two characters, the game is looking pretty good. I was mistaken to compare it to SSB so much, it is a game with it's only logic and gameplay.

Thanks. It's fair to draw comparisons to SSB, since there are plenty of similarities, but it plays differently enough that not all assumptions from SSB hold true.

[Contrary]

The seed is a regular thrown item, so you can throw it at her feet with vA. Doing so launches you into the air (higher than a regular jump), which helps bolster her otherwise poor vertical recovery.

I meant in mid air too.

Oh another thing. Um, I don't know how to articulate this, but a sort of buffer system for Naija's B? Like if you press it and hold it down but are occupied with something else (attacking, getting hit, etc.) when you are neutral again it'll go straight to blocking. It'd make it easier to stop spamming. GK's tornado attack kept hitting me before I realized that I wasn't really blocking it.

The recovery time is actually pretty small, but since the attack is predictable, it is pretty easy to counter.

As an aside, you can reverse the direction of the beast charge with directional input while the attack is charging.

I did not know this! Is there any word of merging all the Beast Charges into a Fox uB type move? Lol that would create a lot of work... Maybe in the future. I'd be glad to help, but it'd probably end up looking really ill-proportioned and icky.

Edit: With good timing, it is possible to be hit by the first of GK's A attack and block the second. Very difficult, but I think it's doable.

[Soulliard]

The seed is a regular thrown item, so you can throw it at her feet with vA. Doing so launches you into the air (higher than a regular jump), which helps bolster her otherwise poor vertical recovery.

I meant in mid air too.

The plant can only exist on the ground, so that wouldn't make sense.

Oh another thing. Um, I don't know how to articulate this, but a sort of buffer system for Naija's B? Like if you press it and hold it down but are occupied with something else (attacking, getting hit, etc.) when you are neutral again it'll go straight to blocking. It'd make it easier to stop spamming. GK's tornado attack kept hitting me before I realized that I wasn't really blocking it.

I understand what you're saying. There's a buffer system already in place, but it's designed for attacks that use button presses rather than button holds. I'll see what I can do.

I did not know this! Is there any word of merging all the Beast Charges into a Fox uB type move?

I considered this at one point, but ran into trouble due to ^A being a recovery move. I may try this again, though.

[Contrary]

The plant can only exist on the ground, so that wouldn't make sense.

Oh yeah. I forgot it was a plant.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2074/naija.png

Just a quick recolour, but I'm trying to get used to this style so I can contribute... I made the >B change to energy form and back for the duration of the attack.

How do you guys get such hi-quality gifs? I'm using Unfreez, and I have to convert everything to gif, which makes it look, well, like a gif.

[William Broom]

That energy form transformation looks really good! I can't wait to see it in action.

[Contrary]

Um, so it looks like Naija's movelist is going through some changes... If I read correctly, ^B may become ^A, and maybe >A, vAir and ^A will become ^B? That leaves a couple attacks.

I'm sad that the pick-up-stuff song isn't going to be included. Mebbe >A becomes step forward and lift rock from up behind Naija, then smashes it down in front of her? That would be cool. Then maybe >Air would be kinda of a forward flip, like she does in the game when you are dashing and left click. Then... I dunno for down air.

Eh, she plays fine as-is, mebbe I should go try doing some stuff for Trilby or something like that.

Edit: Also, could Naija auto wall-grab when she Beast Charges a wall? That'd be cool.