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[Mr.moo]

so were aiming at a general background to mask the objects, in ohter words were going to make the ground and objects on a stage transparent and make a background in wich the objects are.....if it made sense..
p.s i don't mind a bit of harsh here and there towards me im used to it....

[William Broom]

Yeah, rather than using solid visible objects, the actual platform objects will be invisible, but lined up with the backgrounds.

Hey, here's something to think about, what kind of perspective do we want? Will it be completely flat like in your average sidescroller, or will there be a bit of ground visible like in most fighting games? I like the idea of having a bit of depth. Not as much as in a 1-on-1 fighting game, that would take up too much screen space. But just a little bit to give it a more fightery feel?

[Corpus]

Well, maybe. I think we should have some bits of the backgrounds that go in front of the invisible boxes, too - just for visual accents like vines dropping down from objects, or whatever's appropriate for each stage.

[Don Andy]

In the same vein, how about some interactivity in a level? Like, stuff you can knock over or something.

Best example I can pull out of my butt right now would be an Aquaria stage with Monkeys on palm tress that you can kick into the water where they drown (or, if this game has items akin to SSBB, monkeys you can pick up and throw).

[godsavant]

In the same vein, how about some interactivity in a level? Like, stuff you can knock over or something.

Best example I can pull out of my butt right now would be an Aquaria stage with Monkeys on palm tress that you can kick into the water where they drown (or, if this game has items akin to SSBB, monkeys you can pick up and throw).

 

that sounds mean.

I don't want to hurt the monkeys. 

[medieval]

how about jumping on them for massive air

[Don Andy]

that sounds mean.

I don't want to hurt the monkeys. 

That was THE feature in Aquaria :D

[Yigguth]

I don't think this game should have items, but the idea of interactive stages sounds great

[Soulliard]

Hey, here's something to think about, what kind of perspective do we want? Will it be completely flat like in your average sidescroller, or will there be a bit of ground visible like in most fighting games? I like the idea of having a bit of depth. Not as much as in a 1-on-1 fighting game, that would take up too much screen space. But just a little bit to give it a more fightery feel?

Since the levels are more platformer-y than fighter-y, I think the completely flat look would work better. It would be easier to tell exactly where the platforms are.

I don't think this game should have items, but the idea of interactive stages sounds great

I think we should include items, as long as they aren't too powerful. In fact, items are already included in the engine (summon Naija's spike seed with vS).

[muku]

Since the levels are more platformer-y than fighter-y, I think the completely flat look would work better. It would be easier to tell exactly where the platforms are.

Do they have to be more platformer-y? I think the current test level has too many drops and would prefer something "safer". It's just pretty anticlimactic when you're in the middle of a fight and suddenly one player hops into an abyss...

Visually, I'd prefer something with a little depth to it, too.

[Corpus]

I think it should have items.

Yigguth, you seem to want a game that rewards players who invest a great deal of time in it. If I'm wrong, I apologise, but I seem to remember you saying as much in the past, and also saying that you didn't want items because they would make the experience more random and less skill-centric. You also said the thing about letting players work out for themselves which moves were blockable and unblockable.

I really disagree with that. You obviously appreciate challenge in games, which is fine, and, don't get me wrong, I still think that skill should play a part in the game. What you don't seem to consider is that the level of randomness added to the game by the inclusion of these items, aside from making the game more accessible/noob-friendly, is, at least for most people, just fun. The Super Smash Bros. games are, obviously, proof of this.

While a punishing game that exclusively rewards obsessive players with a great deal of free time might attract some gamers, it would repel considerably more. We don't know yet that Indie Brawl will be the sort of game that more than one or two people will ever regularly spend a considerable amount of time playing, and, to be honest, I very much doubt that it will be. It could, however, prove ideal as a game that's fun to play occasionally and for short periods of time - say, a couple of games - with friends.

It should also be a game that is fun and appealing to a wider audience who may not be aware of most (or any) other indie games, but who may be inspired to play the games in which the characters originally featured, or even to become involved in the indie games scene.

This means that it should be accessible, and that it should focus on being an enjoyable and rewarding experience even for first time players, or people who play only occasionally.


TL;DR version:

• Game may not be played regularly or for very long by most players
• Could be ideal for occasional, brief play sessions with friends
• THEREFORE game should not be focused on rewarding dedicated, long-term players, but on becoming an ACCESSIBLE, ENJOYABLE and REWARDING experience for first-time or occasional players.
• FURTHERMORE game could prove a valuable source of publicity for indie games / recruitment tool for indie games community
• Accessibility for infrequent players therefore important in establishing appeal for people unfamiliar with the characters
• LEVEL OF RANDOMNESS INTRODUCED BY ITEMS WOULD ACHIEVE THIS FOCUS ON FUN + SERENDIPITOUS GAMEPLAY (à la Super Smash Bros)

[Oracle]

Theres one problem with items (not to say that isnt doable), and that is how it attaches to the player.

For instance, a sword, barrel, etc would involve animations/ sprites of every character interacting with it, (moving while holding a sword, jumping while holding it, crouching while holding a barrel, etc).

If we are talking about a bomb that sort of "clips" into the character with their current moves and animation, and just adding a "throw" animation to each character, i think its more accesible if items have to be in.

Items that affect the state of a character, also fall in the latter category of "easy", (energy up, high speed, attack lvl up)

Personally,
I would love to implement a system like Pocket Fighters with what we have here...and some simple items thrown into the mix...
tho, dunno how hard it could be to implement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AalX31xay3s&feature=related

[Yigguth]

Actually I'm not at all against items, I welcome them infact. I just figured it would be a little different to add that random factor through crazy stages rather than going the ssb route. Also like Oracle said, items also means a whole mess of extra animation that would need to be done
But If items are included I think the energy crystals from would be a nice inclusion (they could work like the gems from pocket fighters maybe?)

[godsavant]

Since the levels are more platformer-y than fighter-y, I think the completely flat look would work better. It would be easier to tell exactly where the platforms are.

Sorry to interject, but wouldn't the opposite be true? "platformer-y", from your statement, seems to suggest 'flat', yet a lot of classic platformers that require constant jumping and manuevering all have "fighter-y" level aesthetics. To name a few:

-Ninja Gaiden


-Contra


Games that have flat, uniform backgrounds like Donkey Kong are fine with 'flat' designs b/c they have little to no background:



...but if we're really going to have game-themed levels, there's going to be scenery in the background, which could confuse the player as to where they can and cannot land (though this is not a problem in a 3d game like ssb), and lead to some frustrating deaths.

[Corpus]

I think we need lush scenery. It needs to be.. hawt. There can be no other way. It's easy to make the platforms stand out, whether by making them be a different material to everything else on the stage or simply by using colour to suggest depth.

The thing about animating characters with items is definitely problematic. We could have some items that use a Mario Kart-like system, where it isn't seen on the player but rather represented by an icon on-screen, although obviously that would limit the variety of items that would be suitable. There could also be parts of the map, or environmental objects that could appear or drop from the sky at intervals, that could be interacted with by the player and used as an item or weapon in that way.

[Oracle]

Its just a matter of choosing the right colours to separate foreground/background, its not a big deal at all if done properly (and players wont be confused; again. if done properly), so i think we should take care of that, when the time comes for scenery.

The item issue tho, i think its something that should be discussed tho.

[Soulliard]

Thrown items are easy to code, and fun in play. The main drawback of including them is animating them.

Making separate sprites for completing every action both with and without items is probably too much work. If items disappear when picked up, or are noted with a little icon, they'd be easy to add, but might look a little jarring. Or we could, of course, remove items entirely- they aren't an integral part of the game.

This is certainly an issue we need to work out.

[Xion]

I actually like the idea of items held being represented by icons. Not necessarily by that players' health/icon, but maybe floating above their head? This could be for items that induce a status change, such as speed up, attack-up, poison, etc. In addition to sparkle and particle effects, there would be absolutely no confusion as to who has what item. The icon could then flicker off when/as the effect wears out, or if the character is hit hard enough, the icon could pop off from above their head and land on the ground as a reusable item. Then the thrown items, like Naija's seed, could be represented as they are - that that is, attached to the character until they throw it. Possibly following closely behind, as an egg from Yoshi's Story/Island.
I think we should stay away from items like Smash Bros' Beam Sword and Homerun bat, as they would 1. Require way more animations, and 2. Take away the individuality of the characters' attacks.

On interactive environments:
Totally and hells yeah.

On floor angles and perspective:
Angled. I dunno why, but it just seems like it would be better and more beneficial in the long run.

[Corpus]

I agree with Xion on all counts.

[William Broom]

I like a combination of Xion's ideas for items. Items that float above your head, follow along behind you or sit in your hand gives us a good range of possibilities.

Another idea I'd like to put forward is this: Along with the option to turn off items, can we also include an option to turn off stage hazards? I say this because really hardcore Smash player who don't want any kind of interference in their battles can actually only choose between a small handful of the levels in SSBB. Just because they're highly skilled and practised doesn't mean they enjoy playing on Final Destination over and over again. I don't think it would be too hard to create two versions of each stage, the normal one and the 'vanilla' one. With some stages, the hazards might be too deeply ingrained in the stage - in that case, just make it so those stages can't be switched to 'vanilla mode'. But many stages could have this feature: for example in this Aquaria stage that was discussed, all you need to do is take out the monkeys.