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[Felix0]

I don't know why one would make this instead of a full-fledged roguelike, with a command for every letter of the keyboard and tons of obscure systems. Or at least, something along the lines of Chunsoft's Mystery Dungeon series. It's not like the iPhone can't handle such games in a turn-based setting--just bring up a touch keyboard or a large menu when necessary. What you've got isn't unplayable, but it's piddly and unsubstantial. I don't want any single-screen environments that I can see everything of from the beginning, either. A more sophisticated level generation system and nuanced enemy behavior would also be very welcome.

You CAN make this thing work. It's just going to take some serious effort if you don't want to end up on the smartphone trash heap. Immerse yourself in Nethack, Angband, and ADOM for insight and inspiration.

[Ooops]

I don't know why one would make this instead of a full-fledged roguelike, with a command for every letter of the keyboard and tons of obscure systems. Or at least, something along the lines of Chunsoft's Mystery Dungeon series. It's not like the iPhone can't handle such games in a turn-based setting--just bring up a touch keyboard or a large menu when necessary. What you've got isn't unplayable, but it's piddly and unsubstantial. I don't want any single-screen environments that I can see everything of from the beginning, either. A more sophisticated level generation system and nuanced enemy behavior would also be very welcome.

You CAN make this thing work. It's just going to take some serious effort if you don't want to end up on the smartphone trash heap. Immerse yourself in Nethack, Angband, and ADOM for insight and inspiration.

You realize that out of your total of 5 posts, 4 have been negative reaction to game projects, 3 of them being borderline insulting? Also such comments are not very constructive. Gee, what you want here is a game of another genre. It's about as helpful as saying: " I'd much prefer playing a racing game".

@ orhers: Am I feeding a troll here?

[capn.lee]

I don't think he's a troll, I just think he is giving his opinion more value than it's worth.
He'll fit in just fine around here. 

[Kapser]

The perfect roguelike would be between those two. I want a roguelike with deep strategic thinking, but I don't like how much of them are not user friendly.
The game is too simplistic, but I think he's on to something. The prototype is more fun than a lot of roguelikes I played.

Seriously a game gotta damn good for getting to learn what every freaking key of the keyboard are used for.

To awnser the question, I use the heal spell pretty often but I try always using it in an optimal way to finish the level maxed out. The fire spell, I only use it when I'm about to die (which doesn't happen often) or when there's like 3 mana potions on the floor. I think the heal spell is a bit too good, not for the way the game is balanced right now, but if you want to make a really fun spell system. (for the same mana cost, fire will be worth it in very few occasions)

[happymonster]

Just make you and the creatures have different move ranges per turn. I.e. you can move 2, some monsters can move 1, others 2 or more.. That would add more positioning and tactical play.

[Felix0]

The perfect roguelike would be between those two. I want a roguelike with deep strategic thinking, but I don't like how much of them are not user friendly.

Would you prefer Angry Birds? A large part of the enjoyment from a good roguelike comes from gradually figuring out all the minutae of its mechanics. If you're merely running around and stabbing at slimes in tiny little dungeons ad infinitum, you're only boring yourself. In terms of raw mechanical detail, ADOM, Nethack, and Elona are some of the most complex and intricate games ever made. These are games truly meant to engross, entertain, and engage the player's mental capacities, not to stave away boredom on a train commute.

What genre does Ooops think this game belongs to? Isn't "Rogue" right in the title? He's got a point, though: at the moment, it's only complex enough to pass as an awful SRPG with one unit. Its prospects aren't looking too good: Rogue, the genre's namesake that's over THIRTY YEARS OLD now, actually has a lot more going on than this modern interpretation: even hallways between individuated rooms!

I give credit where credit is due. As of late, the "indie games" community has given a free pass to many lazily drawn and coded games with little redeeming value: Passage, Meat Boy, and Knytt Stories among them. But I believe that each game's qualities should be judged against the entire history of the medium, not merely the last eight years of small independent PC development. Cave Story was made by one man in his bedroom, probably with no budget at all! Blaming game design flaws on a lack of staffing or funds, or forgiving them for the same reason, is inexcusable. with I find comments like "enjoyed this game, woohoo!" to be far less constructive than specific examples of what I found wrong or inadequate about games. We're here to improve our games, not pat each other on the back.

And an actual troll would have said "lol dis gaem sux."

[failrate]

It's darling.  I just wish I had more choice of where to go.

[rek]

blah blah blah

Nobody's going to force you, or anyone else, to play this.

[Felix0]

So what? Someone else is going to. And as more low-quality "roguelikes" like this are made, the more accepted this kind of lazy game design is going to become. If it becomes the standard for the genre, than far fewer people are going to be exposed to its defining classics: Nethack, Shiren, and ADOM. Especially with the uber-prevalence of the iPhone, it's just unhealthy for these kinds of games to run wild.

We've already seen this happen to the platformer genre: why do you think Locomalito's excellent Ghosts 'n Goblins clone Maldita Castilla is getting so little attention? Because the grand tradition of long, detailed action-adventure sidescrollers with baroque graphics that must be played from start to finish straight through is being abandoned. It's being replaced by bite-sized "masocore" abortions like Super Meat Boy, where all difficulty is negated by the abundance of quicksave respawn points with infinite lives, and the graphics aren't even worth mentioning. Not to mention that Team Meat are completely incompetent programmers, as the MySQL fiasco with Super Meat Boy made clear.

I'm trying to spur the developer on to gain some ambition, utilize the talent I hope he has, and make something at least modestly great. I will never grow tired of abusing this example, because it's so painfully relevant: Cave Story was made by one man in his bedroom with no money.

[JasonPickering]

Thanks guys:

Kasper: Thanks for the feedback on the skills. I am really thinking that they dont add as much as they take away. I think figuring out a way to give the player so more Choice in their combat would help. It seems that I am making two games at the moment. the first is this game where you use skills and the second is one where you use the monster deaths. I really need to focus on one or the other and I want the second one.

happymonster: thats actually in interesting idea. I am reminded of some of the fantasy flight board games. I think Descent has that, but don't quote me. basically the player has two points per turn. Moving costs a point, and attacking costs a point, and there is a special move that costs two points.

failrate: I agree the player is usually forced into situations they wish to not find themselves in. I am trying my best to list these out so I can build a system or add mechanics to fix these. The main one now is spawning with enemies right next to the bridge.

So the next plan is to set up several new combat systems. I will be testing them out on paper first, whatever survives will then get a engine test. I hope to find something that gives the player more choice without throwing in everything and the kitchen sink.

[happymonster]

Have you thought about having the damage / health statistics be less rigid? I.e. have a bit more randomness on the calculations so you have a chance to kill things easier, or be killed quicker!

[JasonPickering]

Actually I thought about that, But then I am afraid that people will want to increase their chances of hitting, which means I need to start doing stat tracking and I was afraid that it was this slippery slope.

Edit: Also I am compiling a list if "Situations" that makes the player feel like they are forced. below is a good example.



I am hoping by finding these situations I can figure out exactly how the player is being put into these situations and what ways they have to escape them.

Also Any Ideas for similar games to play would be appreciated.

[Kapser]

The perfect roguelike would be between those two. I want a roguelike with deep strategic thinking, but I don't like how much of them are not user friendly.

Would you prefer Angry Birds? A large part of the enjoyment from a good roguelike comes from gradually figuring out all the minutae of its mechanics. If you're merely running around and stabbing at slimes in tiny little dungeons ad infinitum, you're only boring yourself. In terms of raw mechanical detail, ADOM, Nethack, and Elona are some of the most complex and intricate games ever made. These are games truly meant to engross, entertain, and engage the player's mental capacities, not to stave away boredom on a train commute.

What genre does Ooops think this game belongs to? Isn't "Rogue" right in the title? He's got a point, though: at the moment, it's only complex enough to pass as an awful SRPG with one unit. Its prospects aren't looking too good: Rogue, the genre's namesake that's over THIRTY YEARS OLD now, actually has a lot more going on than this modern interpretation: even hallways between individuated rooms!

I give credit where credit is due. As of late, the "indie games" community has given a free pass to many lazily drawn and coded games with little redeeming value: Passage, Meat Boy, and Knytt Stories among them. But I believe that each game's qualities should be judged against the entire history of the medium, not merely the last eight years of small independent PC development. Cave Story was made by one man in his bedroom, probably with no budget at all! Blaming game design flaws on a lack of staffing or funds, or forgiving them for the same reason, is inexcusable. with I find comments like "enjoyed this game, woohoo!" to be far less constructive than specific examples of what I found wrong or inadequate about games. We're here to improve our games, not pat each other on the back.

And an actual troll would have said "lol dis gaem sux."

Felix0: I agree that games aren't evolving in the right direction, but your examples aren't that great. Knytt is also made by one guy and achieve what it's trying to. Of course lot of platformers evolved into checkpoint type systems because players are more easily bored with the overwhelming amount of games out there. This isn't lazy design, it's just the right design choice for SMB because of the nature of the gameplay/levels, and I love this game almost as much as Ghost'N Goblins. For Microgue, of course making this is less work than making a super complex Rogue, but it does what it's supposed to for an iOs game. It does need some more work, but it actually does a better job than a lot of Rogues I played with lot more feature, especially the ones I played on iphone.

It's not important if you don't call this a Rogue, it's what's it's inspired from. Minimalistic design might be lazy design but isn't bad design, it's just going for a more chess-like direction, which is not what you're looking for. The game is designed to be ported on iOs and I enjoyed it although I normally hate casual games.
I'm saying the challenge is to make a game that is easy to pickup and hard to master, not that I want Angry Bird kind of shit..

I have played a few roguelikes and didn't find most of them so deep. I think it's time for me to look for the classics because I know the potential of this genre. Altho I have an issue with ASCII graphics..

Anyways, it's the wrong place to debate this anyways.

[JasonPickering]

I wouul like this to stay somewhat on topic instead of switching into a favorite roguelike ant. but try out Brogue. its ASCII but still looks really good.

[happymonster]

Jason: I suppose I'm biased as I love Chaos (originally on the ZX Spectrum) and have done two remakes of it, but that is the direction I naturally would want to move this towards. That means different movement amounts, more randomness in if attacks do damage (or kill) or not.

It's still a simple system, but makes a lot of 'emergent' gameplay without too many stats.

[Ntero]

I enjoyed the mechanics, but I did feel like each layout was almost predetermined.  Any time there is 1 space between me and him, or there is a diagonal I'm going to take a hit.  Taking this further, any time it would take an odd number of turns before I can attack, before taking into account enemy death events, I'm going to take a hit.  The Skeleton helps to provide a sort of 'wait a turn', and the zombie(?) helps too with the freeze.  The fact that each screen is so small makes this worse, as any time I can start to setup a plan based on kill order, it's a new area and I end up taking predetermined hits again.  I don't feel I have enough control over how each screen is going to play out.  The obvious stuff (Wait a turn option stuff) would make the game too easy, but something like a can move two spaces in 1 direction once a screen, or can choose to go first or let the enemies go first so get to feel that it's not as predetermined.

Maybe that was the intention and it's more about timing potions and mana abilities, but then the early game becomes a dice roll before you start collecting mana.

[JasonPickering]

yeah currently with the Fixed Attack system the game feels more like a puzzle then a regular dungeon crawl. So I added the posibility of Misses into the combat and it feels more like the mini dungeon crawl I started to make. I have added a Stat called Attack. It determines if you hit an enemy or not. You always do 1 damage though if a hit is successful. I wanted to keep stats to a minimum.

Try It

Right now the player has an attack value of 2. the higher that is the better chance you have of hitting an enemy. it makes the game feel very different, which I really dig. It makes it feel like the player has a fighting chance, and if I add something to help their stats (Health and Attack) they will feel like they have much more agency right now the numbers break down like this

Miss Percentage.
Attack 1: %50
Attack 2: %33
Attack 3: %25
Attack 4: %21
Attack 5: %17
Attack 6: %15
Attack 7: %13

I take a random number from the attack number and if its 0 its a miss. So an attack of 3 is 0,1,2,3. so a 25% chance of pulling a zero. the only thing is I like the Curve this gives, but I would like it if it started a little lower. maybe even like at 80%. A monster with high HP, but a terrible attack rate would be Cool. Any Suggestions on ways to code this differently?

Edit: Also I like the combat so Much I might go back to my original idea of the 5th Island being just one big Boss Monster.

[RCIX]

I haven't tried the game yet, but i did a really quick edit on your first screenshot (excuse any poor quality please ):
>

I added some side edge detailing to the tiles, makes them look a bit less like they came out of some sort of island tile factory or somesuch Take a look at the third set of images in this tutorial for what I'm talking about.

Edit: after trying it, I have to say that this version is a bit boring. I mean, you enter a level, start attacking them, and hope the RNG is grateful enough to give you lucky hits. I don't necessarily think a slightly more complex system would be all bad. Perhaps one where you always do damage but that's variable based on RNG and/or monster armor levels?

Also, I can has health bar over enemies? :3

[JasonPickering]

Man that edging looks really good. I had originally planned to do it, but the levels end up in such crazy shapes, that I was pretty sure it was going to be hard to do. I will have to figure out how to make that, cause it looks pretty good.

Well I cant really do anything about damage amounts, without giving the characters massive amounts of health, because if I made damage taken random, taking 2 damage instead of 1 when you only have 4 health, would be devastating. The Player will most likely have a much better hit stat in the actual game though. I will also add ways to increase it.

[RCIX]

Man that edging looks really good. I had originally planned to do it, but the levels end up in such crazy shapes, that I was pretty sure it was going to be hard to do. I will have to figure out how to make that, cause it looks pretty good.

All you'd really need is to add a couple more types of your base tile (one with left-craggy-edge, right-craggy-edge, and one with both edges). It's just modification of the very side set of edge pixels plus an addition of one column for the protruding rock. Here's a mockup of one of the more unusual shapes for ya:



I mean, there are a few edge cases to handle (lol), but thats it.