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[Kapser]

This is a game of calculation, random miss % would be infuriating.

[JasonPickering]

yeah. there lies the problem. its a game at a fork in the road leading to two very different games.

1. Straight battle.
 this makes the game seem more like a puzzle game. the player is given an island with monsters and they most find their way through it. the problem arises here is that the player can be given any number of unwinnable scenarios. I am not a good enough programmer to build an algorithm that creates these puzzles as there are two many random variables to add to the equation, so the best course of action would be to construct them by hand. but even then I would need to remove more variables to make the puzzles self containted. health, skills, items would have to stay on the floor in which they were picked up.

2. Chance of Miss and stats.
this makes the game feel more of an RPG. we can have carry over stats from island to island.
and the level creation algorithm feels a little more forgiving. Game also can curse you with poor luck though.

At this moment I just don't think doing straight calculations is the way yo go. the game will always curse the player with unwinnable situations. Any thoughts though. I have not really committed to one way or the other. the Code for misses is two lines easily commented out. So if you have suggestions I would love to hear them. I also think I might do some mockups of the straight puzzle game and paper prototype it out.

[BlueSweatshirt]

Problem with the hit-and-miss thing is that it's too costly to miss as it is. Way too much at stake to make it fair. Instead of randomness giving the game an extra flair it becomes a game of luck, which is frustrating.

[JasonPickering]

actually Kasper made a suggestion of enemies missing, but not the main character. which I think is actually a pretty good idea. it means the player always knows how much damage they will give, and how much damage they will take at most.

[David Bailey]

This game is awesome, will play more and tell you what I think

[Yrgkala]

It is a promising game, it's very accessible & with fitting & consistent graphics!

Another suggestion someone gave me was making the drops less random. like ever time you kill 5 guys a potion is dropped. it would make it easier to plan ahead with potions and also give some reason to kill enemies.

I don't think there should be a (strong) reason to kill enemies. If the game rewards the player for staying out of fights instead of just mauling down all enemies, then the player gets choices that have clear significance (the reward for playing it right is less hp lost) and demand skill; the game really needs more such choices.

actually Kasper made a suggestion of enemies missing, but not the main character.

Sounds good.

Thoughts:

* As has been said, there are few turns in the game where you can make a choice that is not obvious or irrelevant; I guess this will improve in time as new spells/abilities are added (how about: swapping your position with enemy? Or enemy ability that makes him swap position with you every time he attacks you? I think abilities that concern positions in general would fit with the small levels of Microgue)

* Reading this thread, I understand that there were spells & mana potions & more than 2 types of enemies in the game previously (before microgue_006), did you remove them?

* Bug, potions in the air:

[JasonPickering]

everything is still going and I decided to post a build. Its a huge Update. I swapped out the island for a more conventional dungeon and changed the tile size from 16 to 10.



Also the levels zig zag. the player is not always moving from left to right which bothered me in the first build. I like the zig zag now because it feels like the player is having to move more.

Try It Out

Right now I have a base tower all set up. I am using a combination of static design and random generation to make it easier for the player. Right now its 3 floors of fighting. the 4th floor will be a rest much like the town structure in Shiren the Wanderer. its then followed by 3 more floors of monsters and then the boss.

Also you can shoot a fireball, by clicking the fireball icon in the upper right, and then a direction.

the 4th floor is empty for the moment but you are fully healed on reaching it. and the game will end when you defeat the blob on floor 8. 

let me know what you think. I would really like as much feedback as possible. I think I am getting closer to having a final design idea. I just need to work out a lot of the kinks in the current design.

[PompiPompi]

I couldn't get past level 7. Ran out of fireballs and there were too many enemies. A witch and an orc killed me, maybe I should have been wiser(they both attacked me).

[Byth]

So far I've made it to the 8th floor once. Sometimes I just get screwed over and can't make a move that lets me not get hit, even from spawn (enemy spawns diagonally from me and I'm boxed in, my only choice is to move next to it, goblin right next to entrance). Also, it sometimes produces tight corridors where the only strategy is to move back and forth and wait. It is pretty enjoyable though.

The only other thing I have to say at the moment is that while most of the art is pretty neat, the player character looks a bit like a horse with a giant human head (though I might be nuts) and the fireball looks like a slice of pizza.

[h_double]

I like it! Nice visual style.

I'd love to see keyboard controls and a way to skip (wait) a turn without moving.

[JasonPickering]

thanks. I probably wont add keyboard support as its mainly an iOS build. I thought about adding a skip turn, but cant really see anything in favor of it. a lot of times I feel like its in there the same way food clocks are. that people put them in because Rogue had them. I think with such a small level that the skip turn does nothing to make the game more challenging. in a lot of roguelikes the player will mash skip turn until the monster gets next to them and then the battle starts. its just used as a way to get the monster closer so you ge the first strike. the waiting idea for healing is neat, but wouldnt work here as there is no downside to is. I did think about this and cam up with two ideas, but neither worked for this.

1. the player has a food clock that can not be recharged. each turn ticks down the food clock once. a skip turn ticks it down 5. the player can skip all they want, but it might cost them in the end.

2. the player had a block option. they could only use it 5 times, and while blocking they took no damage.

[stevesan]

Very nice and polished, and instantly enjoyable.

I had to click on the number to cast fireball - is this intended? Feel like I should be able to just click the icon.

Skipping a turn, as mentioned by others, would be nice.

Maybe I just suck at Rogue-likes, but I had no chance of getting beyond level 7 or so. Too many enemies, no more fireballs, and low health. I do like the simplicity, but are there health/fireball pickups anywhere? Given there's only one exit each level, I had little incentive to go back...like I was definitely gonna die unless I just got lucky. I realize Rogue-likes are meant to have that element of chance, but they usually have a good amount of agency and strategy as well.

[JasonPickering]

yeah I need to Extend the Fireball Activating, but I am waiting to see if I change how to activate it first, since I am in the process of designing the spell system. As for difficulty, I am going to add health pickups, but I cant add them until I finish the spell system as the magic and inventory system will be intertwined. I am hoping to get them in there soon.

[iamagiantnerd]

Love the art style.

The hard bit with roguelikes is finding that balance between increasing the player's power and increasing the difficulty they face.  The thing that seems to be missing here is that the difficulty increases as you delve deeper, but the player's power hasn't increased to be able to deal with that difficulty.  I know you're working on health pickups, a spell system and inventory, so I'm sure this will address this area.  It will be good to try to keep the simplicity you have in place with the interface and still add more depth.

There's a lot that just feels right with this game. I can see wasting lots of time with quick little dungeon romps. 

[h_double]

I thought about adding a skip turn, but cant really see anything in favor of it. a lot of times I feel like its in there the same way food clocks are. that people put them in because Rogue had them. I think with such a small level that the skip turn does nothing to make the game more challenging. in a lot of roguelikes the player will mash skip turn until the monster gets next to them and then the battle starts. its just used as a way to get the monster closer so you ge the first strike.

Well, yeah, pretty much every turn based tactical combat game has a "wait" command, because "stand your ground and let the enemy draw closer" is a useful thing to do. Plus it feels weird and frustrating having to run back and forth from square to square, it doesn't make any sense that a guy with a sword can't stand still for a moment. If you do decide that element is central to your gameplay, you should at least think of some little bit of narrative hand-waving to explain it.

But I can think of a number of ways to make skipping a turn a less attractive option. Maybe have some evil black mist that follows you down the staircase from level to level, creeping closer every x turns. Or have a speed/initiative mechanic where moving into melee range doesn't always mean the other side gets the first attack.

[08--n7.r6-79.84]

your game is really-really AWESOME!

[st33d]

Well, yeah, pretty much every turn based tactical combat game has a "wait" command

Dinofarm's next game Auro is also doing away with the skip-turn option.

Consider chess, do you get to skip a go in chess?

The skip turn mechanic always has a counter balance because it essentially is cheating. If you remove the skip turn cheat, you don't need the extra complication of a counter balance.

[h_double]

Consider chess, do you get to skip a go in chess?

Well, unless you are down to just your king, you can have a specific piece hold it's position. I'd also argue that chess isn't a representation of tactical combat in the same way that a roguelike is; chess is more abstract.

Not having a skip turn action means that instead there is a "wiggle back and forth" action that feels fiddly and doesn't add much tactical depth.

That's opinion, of course, but I DO think that if you are going to leave out a skip turn button, the game narrative should explain it somehow ("this isn't a dungeon explorer, it's a flying robot").

[JasonPickering]

yeah, but I think if you start explaining the "no skip button" logic in game that opens up other problems. because if you get a skip button, why shouldn't the enemies then that leaves you both standing one space a part yelling names at each other. although we did have a rather lengthy talk about a skip go function here.

in other news. players have much more direct AI. they no longer wander but path right at you. I will hopefully be able to post a build this weekend, but Have a friend coming in town to visit so it might be later monday night.

[True Valhalla]

I've got admit I didn't find myself enjoying this new build as much as the early ones.

I disliked that the enemies were impacting the game more than I was. In the early builds those enemies that paralyzed everything gave me tactical options beyond the Fireball, and the skeleton bones allowed me to impact the game board. With both of those missing, world interaction for the player has dropped a lot.

In this build, the enemies positioned me (the swap enemy) and I was forced into a lot of situations where I couldn't play a "perfect" game, in that Orcs (in particular) would never move next to me first. So less control of the environment and the enemies was a big negative for me. It was quite limited with the Fireball, paralyzing enemies and skeleton bones, but now with just the Fireball it's far less fun.

The change in resolution was also a step backwards in my opinion, but I'm sure you have your reasons for that. The art style is still very nice, and balance was OK-ish.