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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignWhy aren't we asking the question, "what makes a good game"?
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noah!
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« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2012, 10:28:52 PM »

Well, uh, when the person in question could effectively be replaced with a script that pulls from an RSS feed...uh...no?

I guess it depends on what you want from your fellow forumgoers. Like, you might be fine with someone just wanting to push their stuff up for discussion without being willing to jump into the fray themselves. On the contrary, I like my members alive, and active. I want to feel warmth in their touch. Hear their soft cries when I prod 'em with a fork.

When I think about it, there's nothing wrong with what he's doing. I do like his articles, and his game looks neat too. And, were this someone more integrated into the community, I'd have absolutely no problem with what he's doing. But to just show up and start plugging his blog, without much interest in participating in the discussions of others?
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2012, 10:31:37 PM »

yeah, i think there's nothing wrong with what he's doing, but if he doesn't participate in any discussions other than discussions about his articles, he's not really a contributing member of the community. but there are a lot of forum members who only ever post about their games, the number of accounts below 10 posts is probably more than all the other accounts combined
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2012, 12:07:23 AM »

i agree with dragonmaw except for the part about desert dog making no good posts, he's made some good posts in the past. dragonmaw's point is just that moderators are not here to enforce politeness and respect. a forum with too much politeness and respect isn't a very good forum, since people would be afraid of saying what they really think without being banned for disrespect
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« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2012, 03:09:43 AM »

Hi, I am new here, but I have to agree with the OP. There should be, at least, guidelines to make good games, because other midias like, paint, films, book, all have this. I think that people are afraid of this question because we have so many "uncommon games" that a general rule doesn't feel right, but I belive that they are exception, or at least we should consider they exception for now, because we have to get a starting point to base theorys and guidelines.

again, i don't really see this -- what are these supposed guidelines to paintings, films, and books? i know professional artists, filmmakers, and novelists, and have talked with them about their fields quite a bit, and none of them ever told me that there are any guidelines about what makes works in their media great. other media vary even more than games do, not less. there's a greater variety of movies and novels than there are a variety of games, simply because they're older

I'm talking about things like the thirds rule for art and hero's journey for writing. You don't NEED to follow them to make good stuff, but if you follow you have 90% of chance to create something at least decent.
I noticed that some company have created their guidelines, like Armorgames and Nitrome. When you play their games you will notice that they have somethings that they always put in their games to make it fun.
We are not talking about restrict creativity, but about study behavior of players, production, design and etc.
Maybe like some people said, a good game is just a group of good stuff together. But if that's it, how we have games that have good music, good graphics, good physics and still be bad? And how we have game that are poor in some of these aspects and be so amazing?
Stop thinking is always a mistake, but I understand why developers are being rough with this, so if no startpoint be set to we have a more deep discuss about, I will understand if this topic be left aside, at least for now...
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ortoslon
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« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2012, 03:11:58 AM »

Salen & Zimmerman's book Rules of Play is the closest approximation of the sought-for answer that i've seen. if anyone else has read it and could summarize it, please do (i can't be arsed and forgot most of it anyway)
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Derek
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« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2012, 04:29:28 AM »

Hi, I am new here, but I have to agree with the OP. There should be, at least, guidelines to make good games, because other midias like, paint, films, book, all have this. I think that people are afraid of this question because we have so many "uncommon games" that a general rule doesn't feel right, but I belive that they are exception, or at least we should consider they exception for now, because we have to get a starting point to base theorys and guidelines.

again, i don't really see this -- what are these supposed guidelines to paintings, films, and books? i know professional artists, filmmakers, and novelists, and have talked with them about their fields quite a bit, and none of them ever told me that there are any guidelines about what makes works in their media great. other media vary even more than games do, not less. there's a greater variety of movies and novels than there are a variety of games, simply because they're older

I'm talking about things like the thirds rule for art and hero's journey for writing. You don't NEED to follow them to make good stuff, but if you follow you have 90% of chance to create something at least decent.
I noticed that some company have created their guidelines, like Armorgames and Nitrome. When you play their games you will notice that they have somethings that they always put in their games to make it fun.
We are not talking about restrict creativity, but about study behavior of players, production, design and etc.
Maybe like some people said, a good game is just a group of good stuff together. But if that's it, how we have games that have good music, good graphics, good physics and still be bad? And how we have game that are poor in some of these aspects and be so amazing?
Stop thinking is always a mistake, but I understand why developers are being rough with this, so if no startpoint be set to we have a more deep discuss about, I will understand if this topic be left aside, at least for now...

One thing that comes to mind is difficulty ramp. I don't know if there's data about it, but it seems generally agreed upon that games get harder at a steady pace. Personally, I enjoy it when there's a bit of a difficulty spike in the middle, but maybe that's just me.

And there are some game-specific ideas that are generally considered bad, like grinding or fetch quest or collect-a-thon. Anything that's too simple and also repetitive seems to be bad, at least where reflex-based games are concerned. Those parts of games are likened to housework, basically (chores).
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« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2012, 04:31:12 AM »

This is a meaningless discussion.  "Good" means nothing.  Here's a list of things that might make a game "good":

Fun                 (SMB3)
Deep                (Chess)
Compelling          (DOTA)
Exciting            (Quake)
Moving              (Passage)

That's just a tiny sample.  A game might be one (or many or none) and still be thought of as "good".

It can't be completely meaningless... I mean, you chose 5 games: SMB3, chess, DOTA, Quake, and Passage. If it were meaningless, you could swap those games out for Cheetahmen 2, Superman 64, Bubsy 3d, Tattoo Assassins, and a bagel, and we'd be none the wiser (cue canned joke about Passage/the bagel).

Some games are more gooder and some games are more worser (i.e. less gooder). Shrug

But I'm sure someone could come up for a reason why those games are good.  Or given the games you chose, maybe the guidelines should be:
1) It's a game
2) It actually works
But that might disqualify Passage, and some other trainwrecky games that people still find enjoyment.  This is why it's meaningless. I find those games to be good, but there's a reason I laid the Passage minefield.  A lot of people don't think it is good, and don't think the reason that I think it is good is even a valid criterion.  And no amount of guidelines are going to bridge that gulf.

@CA Sinclair
Yeah, I know I didn't pick the most controversial position in saying Brogue is good.  I know that it does have a following in the Roguelike community, but I also know that there are some that think down on it for being "baby's first roguelike."  So, I think that my point of "some might hate the thing I love" is valid.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2012, 06:05:38 AM »

I'm talking about things like the thirds rule for art and hero's journey for writing. You don't NEED to follow them to make good stuff, but if you follow you have 90% of chance to create something at least decent.
I noticed that some company have created their guidelines, like Armorgames and Nitrome. When you play their games you will notice that they have somethings that they always put in their games to make it fun.
We are not talking about restrict creativity, but about study behavior of players, production, design and etc.
Maybe like some people said, a good game is just a group of good stuff together. But if that's it, how we have games that have good music, good graphics, good physics and still be bad? And how we have game that are poor in some of these aspects and be so amazing?
Stop thinking is always a mistake, but I understand why developers are being rough with this, so if no startpoint be set to we have a more deep discuss about, I will understand if this topic be left aside, at least for now...

there are things like that that everybody knows about, but they're still not universally accepted. but i definitely don't think it's true that 90% of stories follow joseph campbell's the hero's journey thing; i'd say it's not even 9%

but as derek mentioned, there are small rules of thumb that a lot of people agree on; for instance in writing there's the 'show not tell' thing. but we have those things in games too: for instance, the idea that choice in a game should be meaningful, and that there should be no dominant strategy. but those things are not what makes a game *good*, they're if anything what make a game acceptable
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« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2012, 06:09:45 AM »

Quote from: Fallsburg
This is a meaningless discussion.  "Good" means nothing.  Here's a list of things that might make a game "good":

Fun                 (SMB3)
Deep                (Chess)
Compelling          (DOTA)
Exciting            (Quake)
Moving              (Passage)

That's just a tiny sample.  A game might be one (or many or none) and still be thought of as "good".
The words 'fun' and 'compelling' don't really say anything beyond something is 'good', so they don't work very well as qualifiers for that word.

Anyways, I read the article, seemed arrogant to me and maybe even a little communistic "DinofarmGames thought lights the way ahead!" I don't doubt this guy has knowledge to impart but painting yourself as the chosen one ready to lead the unbelievers unto Paradise is a bit goofball.
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2012, 07:05:32 AM »

Quote from: Fallsburg
This is a meaningless discussion.  "Good" means nothing.  Here's a list of things that might make a game "good":

Fun                 (SMB3)
Deep                (Chess)
Compelling          (DOTA)
Exciting            (Quake)
Moving              (Passage)

That's just a tiny sample.  A game might be one (or many or none) and still be thought of as "good".
The words 'fun' and 'compelling' don't really say anything beyond something is 'good', so they don't work very well as qualifiers for that word.

I believe that's his point.
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« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2012, 07:30:41 AM »

Cleaned out the off-topic posts.
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« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2012, 07:39:13 AM »

@Christian Knudsen - You might be right, oops if you are. I thought he was listing more specific ways a game can be good. "Compelling" and "fun" are almost as vague as "good".
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J-Snake
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« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2012, 07:39:18 AM »

but it looks very repetitive and sometimes too much precision-based.
@topic:
You are not even slightly qualified to judge TrapThem until you have played it, mate.
It is one of the most varied puzzlers you will ever find. And You don't need to go the action/dexterity-route. There are challenges for every typ of player. The placeholder graphics are repetetive, I give you that, but it is a blast to play, especially for smart people.
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« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2012, 07:50:01 AM »

@Christian Knudsen - You might be right, oops if you are. I thought he was listing more specific ways a game can be good. "Compelling" and "fun" are almost as vague as "good".

Reading it over again, maybe I'm wrong. It certainly could be read as if Fallsburg is listing factors that make those games good -- and if that's the case, then you're right that "fun" and "compelling" are mostly just synonyms for "good" and don't really explain why the listed games are good.
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Fallsburg
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« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2012, 07:50:57 AM »

@Christian Knudsen - You might be right, oops if you are. I thought he was listing more specific ways a game can be good. "Compelling" and "fun" are almost as vague as "good".

It's a little bit of both.  I was using vague terms that are only slightly more descriptive than "good" on purpose.  Partially because each of those terms can encompass a wide variety of things (fun being the broadest), partially because even those are essentially meaningless, and partially because they do convey a bit more meaning than "good".  As you noted, they are so generic so as to contain very little meaning, but they do give you an idea as to different measures of goodness.

My point is this:
There are many different things that can make a game good.  They are all subjective, and they might be contradictory.  The key is to make a game that you and/or someone else would want to play.  That's it.  That's the guideline to making a good game.  

I'm pretty sure that there exists at least one counterexample to every single guideline/rule that someone can come up with for what makes a good game.  

Edit:
I do disagree with
Quote
"fun" and "compelling" are mostly just synonyms for "good" and don't really explain why the listed games are good
but perhaps I should have been more clear.  It was a quickly written post.
My DOTA example is a personal one.  I don't find DOTA or other MOBAs to be particularly fun.  They are full of rude people, they are clunky, they tend to just throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks, etc.  That being said, I get sucked into them more than any other game.  So much so that I have taken a vow never to play another one again, because it can hit psychological compulsion levels when I do get into one.  That is what I mean by compelling.  I am literally compelled to play them. 
Does that make it good?  I'd say that it does, but only in one specific way.

As for "fun", again, I meant a sort of joy.  I can get very into a game of Chess or Magic: The Gathering, but I don't think of them as "fun".  But playing SMB 3 is an effervescent experience that brings a smile to my face.  I classify this as "fun".

So, while the terms I used were broad, and I didn't explain myself too well, I stand by my assertions. 
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« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2012, 07:53:55 AM »

Personally, I enjoy it when there's a bit of a difficulty spike in the middle, but maybe that's just me.
No, me too!
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« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2012, 07:58:17 AM »

 So, I think that my point of "some might hate the thing I love" is valid.
Yeah yeah I know. I just needed an excuse to talk about Brogue.  Cheesy
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Fallsburg
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« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2012, 08:00:34 AM »

 So, I think that my point of "some might hate the thing I love" is valid.
Yeah yeah I know. I just needed an excuse to talk about Brogue.  Cheesy

Man, why isn't there a Brogue thread?  I too look for any excuse to talk about Brogue.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2012, 08:13:01 AM »

I wouldn't say so. TrapThem looks really boring. Maybe for a few first levels it might be fun, but it looks very repetitive and sometimes too much precision-based. IMO you're just obsessed with perfect gameplay mechanics and the underlying technology and the game seems fun to you cause you're it's creator.
I would like to know what exactly looks boring to you (exept for the graphics). So we perhaps might gain more insight about what makes a good game.
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2012, 08:14:24 AM »

I do disagree with
Quote
"fun" and "compelling" are mostly just synonyms for "good" and don't really explain why the listed games are good
but perhaps I should have been more clear.  It was a quickly written post.
My DOTA example is a personal one.  I don't find DOTA or other MOBAs to be particularly fun.  They are full of rude people, they are clunky, they tend to just throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks, etc.  That being said, I get sucked into them more than any other game.  So much so that I have taken a vow never to play another one again, because it can hit psychological compulsion levels when I do get into one.  That is what I mean by compelling.  I am literally compelled to play them. 
Does that make it good?  I'd say that it does, but only in one specific way.

As for "fun", again, I meant a sort of joy.  I can get very into a game of Chess or Magic: The Gathering, but I don't think of them as "fun".  But playing SMB 3 is an effervescent experience that brings a smile to my face.  I classify this as "fun".

So, while the terms I used were broad, and I didn't explain myself too well, I stand by my assertions. 

When I called them synonyms, I didn't mean in the dictionary sense, just for the context of this thread, i.e. describing what makes a game good. If you say that a game needs to be "fun" or "compelling", you're not answering the question, you're just wording it differently, since that would just lead to the new question of "what makes a game fun/compelling". But you actually mentioned some very specific examples of factors that make a game "not fun":

Quote
They are full of rude people, they are clunky, they tend to just throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks, etc.

So one just needs to make the opposite of that! Grin
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