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[Xion]

moves a bit slow.

...oh, crap, I forgot to finish one frame

...

okay fixed.

[Alex May]

All you people worried about copyright, it covers only the finished product and not any of the characters, story etc. To infringe on copyright you have to actually copy verbatim parts of the original product.

That's not to say you might not now be infringing any IP rights at all - but copyright you certainly are not.

I point you towards the numerous fan sites, fan fiction, and fan games that have ever been made about anything. A few got shut down when they started to make some money, and a fewer still got shut down unfairly while still free. The chances are SLIM INDEED that Indie Brawl will receive some missive from Pixel or Nintendo asking it to shut down, IMO. You should simply carry on with your project.

[Rostiger]

All you people worried about copyright, it covers only the finished product and not any of the characters, story etc. To infringe on copyright you have to actually copy verbatim parts of the original product.

That's not to say you might not now be infringing any IP rights at all - but copyright you certainly are not.

I point you towards the numerous fan sites, fan fiction, and fan games that have ever been made about anything. A few got shut down when they started to make some money, and a fewer still got shut down unfairly while still free. The chances are SLIM INDEED that Indie Brawl will receive some missive from Pixel or Nintendo asking it to shut down, IMO. You should simply carry on with your project.

Agreed.

[kyn]

And Pixel even gave his blessing for the PSP and DS ports, so there won't be any problem certainly.

[Rostiger]

Completely forgot with all this copyright stuff: sweet animation! I like that he even holsters the polar star instead of disappearing. Nice detail! Me likes! 

[Melly]

Makes me realize how cluttered he'd look if all equipment he has was always shown in the sprite (at least the polar star, sword and booster).

[Corpus]

I'd say don't bother and include it anyway, don't even ask for permission because it might be refused. That's how I'd do it.
BTW is there even a copyright attached to the original cave story?
Hey guys, let's just copyright the characters for TIGSource before Nintendo AHAHAHA!

copyright is implicit in everything copyrightable

Uh, also, we're not doing this to screw people over. I think the words I used a couple of months ago when discussing this last (we have discussed it before) were "with the developers, not despite them."

If Pixel doesn't want us to use his characters, we have no right to use them, regardless of copyright. Laws are, generally, in place for the times when people are being dicks; they are not the be all and end all of life, but rather a means of attempting to maintain the status quo. Not breaking the law does not exempt you from dickdom.

Don't be a dick.

Pixel made Cave Story, a game that we have all (or, at least most of us have) enjoyed hugely. It's obvious just looking at the reactions to the news of its coming to WiiWare that his game has brought a lot of joy, silly as it sounds, to a lot of people, and for that he deserves our respect.

Also, it took him like a bazillion years to make.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: get his permission first.

[Gold Cray]

Thank you. I was trying to find a way to say exactly that, but couldn't seem to get the phrasing right.

[Soulliard]

Right. If all else fails, we've got the next best thing- Ip!

[Zaphos]

All you people worried about copyright, it covers only the finished product and not any of the characters, story etc. To infringe on copyright you have to actually copy verbatim parts of the original product.

That's not to say you might not now be infringing any IP rights at all - but copyright you certainly are not.

I point you towards the numerous fan sites, fan fiction, and fan games that have ever been made about anything. A few got shut down when they started to make some money, and a fewer still got shut down unfairly while still free. The chances are SLIM INDEED that Indie Brawl will receive some missive from Pixel or Nintendo asking it to shut down, IMO. You should simply carry on with your project.

This is just wrong ... the copyright holder has the exclusive right to create derivative works, which means that they can control or stop other derivative works including fan fiction.  Fan fiction exists because the copyright holder either doesn't know about it or doesn't mind it.

And more importantly, as Corpus said, asking for permission is a matter of respect as well, regardless of the law.

[laserghost]

All you people worried about copyright, it covers only the finished product and not any of the characters, story etc. To infringe on copyright you have to actually copy verbatim parts of the original product.

That's not to say you might not now be infringing any IP rights at all - but copyright you certainly are not.

I point you towards the numerous fan sites, fan fiction, and fan games that have ever been made about anything. A few got shut down when they started to make some money, and a fewer still got shut down unfairly while still free. The chances are SLIM INDEED that Indie Brawl will receive some missive from Pixel or Nintendo asking it to shut down, IMO. You should simply carry on with your project.

This is just wrong ... the copyright holder has the exclusive right to create derivative works, which means that they can control or stop other derivative works including fan fiction.  Fan fiction exists because the copyright holder either doesn't know about it or doesn't mind it.

And more importantly, as Corpus said, asking for permission is a matter of respect as well, regardless of the law.

Is Indie Brawl being sold or is it free? If it's free, it's covered under Fair Use, at least in the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

Beyond that, I agree that it's just good sense to get Pixel's permission.

[muku]

Is Indie Brawl being sold or is it free? If it's free, it's covered under Fair Use, at least in the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

I'd like to hear someone's opinion on this who is well-versed in the laws because frankly, I'm not so sure. Just being free is neither necessary nor sufficient for fair use being applicable, even the Wikipedia article says so.

[Gainsworthy]

Waaaaaaaaaait a second. We haven't got Pixel's permission yet? That ain't right. All that work on an assumption he'd be good with it? We should really, really ask him. Wasn't the entire idea to have creator support?

Derek's interviewed him before, and [Aeon Genesis] had a lot of correspondence with him whilst TRANSLATING the game, so, can we ask them to ask him?


ASSUMPTION: Ikiki doesn't have a clue what we're doing either, am I right?

XION: Helluva animation you've done there. I mean, damn. Pockets the gun and everything.

[Soulliard]

That's correct. The Golden Knight, Turner and Xoda have all been permitted, so we ought to concentrate on them.

[Zaphos]

Is Indie Brawl being sold or is it free? If it's free, it's covered under Fair Use, at least in the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

I'd like to hear someone's opinion on this who is well-versed in the laws because frankly, I'm not so sure. Just being free is neither necessary nor sufficient for fair use being applicable, even the Wikipedia article says so.

Yeah ... being free isn't enough.  That's specifically addressed in the 'common misunderstandings' of the wikipedia article, so I'm not sure what Shoo was thinking.

Anyway, it seems the main way derivative work that uses characters from the original has been protected under fair use is by being considered "transformative," which is unlikely in this case and also something you'd probably have to go to court to prove.  So, not a great option ...

[laserghost]

I'll explain what I was thinking. Fair use has a lot of gray area on purpose, but basically, something is fair use if it does nothing to undermine the value and significance of the original work. From wikipedia:

In short, we must often… look to the nature and objects of the selections made, the quantity and value of the materials used, and the degree in which the use may prejudice the sale, or diminish the profits, or supersede the objects, of the original work.

So, unless people made money off of Indie Brawl, it can't keep any portion of an audience away from Cave Story itself.

However, I'll concede that it's just theory and it's safer to assume we can't be sure. No matter what, it's just smarter to hold off on anything until Pixel gives his blessings.

[medieval]

Is Derek already busy with it?

[Zaphos]

I'll explain what I was thinking. Fair use has a lot of gray area on purpose, but basically, something is fair use if it does nothing to undermine the value and significance of the original work. From wikipedia:

In short, we must often… look to the nature and objects of the selections made, the quantity and value of the materials used, and the degree in which the use may prejudice the sale, or diminish the profits, or supersede the objects, of the original work.

So, unless people made money off of Indie Brawl, it can't keep any portion of an audience away from Cave Story itself.

I don't see how that follows ... free stuff can definitely diminish profits, for example if the free stuff is a competing product.  For example if Pixel wants to sell a fighting game with cave story characters in the future (okay, unlikely example ... but legally copyright gives him the exclusive right to do it) then he'd be competing against Indie Brawl and the fact that Indie Brawl is free only makes that competition harder on Pixel.

Also in general I think that "gray area" means "it can be taken to court," which is usually enough to stop a bunch of people trying to do something for free and for fun on the Internet.  So I interpret gray area as "stay away," really.

(And of course the larger point is that it's just polite to ask.)

[Rory]

Just ask and get it over and done with.
Seriously.

[Soulliard]

We need someone who can speak Japanese to ask.