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J-Snake
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« on: February 22, 2012, 11:59:13 AM »

Firt off do you feel there is still a need for 2D action-rpgs with beautiful pixel-art?

I potentially ADORE games like Secret of Mana and Secret of Evermore. But they are not that sophisticated as I wish. They could use more depth in story, progression, the combat-system and they need a sophisticated npc-network. Do you think that would make an awesome oldschool action-rpg the world is still missing out?
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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2012, 01:24:41 PM »

Totally agree! While I love classic turn-based RPGs, I find their more action-oriented brothers really fun too. Screw it, with combat system and customization good enough I can even pass the story depth improvements  Wink
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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2012, 03:06:41 PM »

you're not putting out any ideas, you are just mentionning every feature and wish they were better. how?
 what direction would you take the action rpg part? more of a beat 'em up like Legend of Mana? a platformer like metroidvanias? a zelder?

what the fuck does "in depth story" mean anyway what is an example of in depth story compared to not in depth story
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imaginationac
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2012, 03:27:55 PM »

There is a need for art. END THREAD.

Seriously, asking if there is an need for a type of game is stupid.

What you probably meant to ask is, what the DEMAND for this type of game is. The demand exists (Secret of Grindea has gotten a lot of reception).

Action RPGs tend have less substance in regards to story, since the focus of the game is the ACTION, typically represented in with combat, and varied through skills and loot systems. The more time people are talking, the less you are doing things, which leads to boredom which is bad. Bastion, from what I've played of the demo (and read and heard about), solves part of this problem by removing the story telling from the typical static text box and instead passively uses a narrator that describes the world and YOUR actions as you play.

Personally, I just want more good, polished, long-form action RPGS on the PC. Secrets of Grindea, and Path of Exile are two that I'm looking forward to.
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2012, 03:50:18 PM »

you're not putting out any ideas, you are just mentionning every feature and wish they were better. how?
Whoa whoa whoa. The name of the thread is "Your" ideas, not "My" ideas. That is not his problem.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 04:53:39 PM »

Thanks for the mentioned games. If you guys know any 2D action-rpgs please let me know.
Can never hurt.

I can care less for story, too. But good story doesn't imply a lot of text. It only implies it is not put together out of the ass;)

I have ideas, it goes even so far that there is a competitive vs-mode like in a fighter.  It is all about mastering magic, sword-play and mind-games. The controls max out the snes-like joypad. Can you imagine a vs-mode in an 2D action-rpg. How do you like the idea in general?
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2012, 05:11:15 PM »

Just remembered Fortune Summoners. It has a vs. mode. I played against the CPU, which promptly  kicked my ass. The game doesn't have networking, or standard multiplayer in the normal modes though. It supports joysticks/gamepads pretty well.
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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 12:25:37 AM »

If you have a PS3, I would recommend you get 3D Dot Game Heroes ASAP. It's a little more Seiken Densetsu than Legend of Zelda tbh, but it's really well executed and straightforward. If there's a happy middle ground between old-school and new-school Zelda, that game hugs it like a condom hugs a penis. If you have a PS1, Alundra may be up your alley, too. (Pssht! "If.") Cheesy Forsaken Dungeon mode of Ehrgiez for it is wicked cool too, if a little bit grindy; but if you don't have it already, it's a little too expensive for it's own good (Ehrgiez = FF7 collector's merch and all).

You could also check out the Zelda Classic threads in (page 2 of?) the Games subforum. I feel ya there.

As for my ideas...
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One of the two major dev projects that I'm trying to grind out takes a bit of Rogue/Brogue inspiration (guilty as charged) and mix it with some LoZ/Gauntlet influence and strategic randomization.

THE WORLD:

9 biomes that are level-chunked together in 6x4 screen scenes, with neighboring parts that alternate focus between combating enemies, navigational challenges (IE: a watery part may produce streams, and bridges with which to cross them), and booby traps. The layouts have tags for rewards and obstacles, depending on which "type" of room they're in; and each one also has a shuffled array that factors in:

-1 room contains a powerfully monstrous boss, which early in the game, players should avoid and circumvent.
-1 room contains a miniboss ~ something that takes dedicated effort to defeating, but is doable even for basic-level players, unlike the monstrous bosses.
-1 room contains a Gemerald guardian (in 7 of the biomes, and I'm still deciding what to put in the other two). Collecting the 7 Gemeralds from their guardians is the game's collect-a-thon.
-1 room contains a "red present," a weapon variant.
-1 room contains a "green present," a biome-relevant navigation tool.
-1 room contains a "blue present," a Mystery Container which the player can choose to increase one of three meters with (or maybe four, if I make "bombs" a meter).
-1 room contains a NPC (more on that later)
-1 room contains a "cash mystery," a payday hidden by something like destructible terrain.
-1 room is a food stockpile.
-4 rooms contain food.
-4 rooms contain extra disposable items.

Between the biomes are bonfires, which - like in Dark Souls - will restore your life and status, and basically reset any non-permanent factors. The biomes themselves will probably be thrashable at a rate of about 3 every 10 minutes, so a basic runthrough will only take about half an hour, and a full one maybe an hour tops - so I don't think I'll mess with savegames, or if I do, I'll keep it really basic.

To the left of the generated world is your HomeTown where you begin, not a lot goes on there beyond you getting starting equipment, and to the right is the Temple of Judgement, which is the climax of the game/story, and naturally, sealed by the power of the 7 Gemeralds.

THE PLAYER/CHARACTERS

Another instance of a shuffling array, there's 24 roles to play, and 24 core sprites that work with the game. So while the roles will remain the same between games, they're graphically represented differently each time. This includes you, the Hero. The roles:

Hero - The player.
Love - The player's love interest?

Advisor - Gives general hints about the game. Pretty much stays put.
Shopkeeper - Buy disposable items here.
Smithy - Upgrade or refine your weapons here.
Ally - A fellow comrade in arms that will appear in a pinch. Free them and they will offer you assistance and/or rewards.
Trader - Can be used to exchange one type of item for a similar one - like food for food, weaponry for weaponry, etc. You can see in advance what they have to offer.
Traitor - Nearly identical to the Ally, except that in certain events or circumstances, they will try either subtlely or confrontationally to kill you off. "The Enemy Within," for lack of a better term.
Player Hunter - They are not subtle about their intent. They are a direct rival to you, and make no mistake or deception about it. They are motivated by their infatuation with the Love; and wise enough to retreat when they're close to death. Your rival can also recover at bonfires.

Gemerald Guardian x 7
Grunt x 3
Miniboss x 3

(All in all, it would probably work better with 7 biomes, but configuring that would be a little dicey, unless maybe HomeTown and Temple of Judgement were considered the other two...)

GAMEPLAY

You have three bars that regulate your abilities. Apart from mandatorily starting with one on each, you can configure a number of them at the start. Vitality is your Heart Containers, which measure your HP. Stamina is (presently Anvils) which regulate how frequently you can physically attack, and what attacks you can use, and will restore upon cooldown, and some items can temporarily exceed your max until used. Wisdom is Star Containers for use in magical abilities, mostly projectile/ranged combat. Each of these meters usually measures 2 points per container, but can each become cursed and then are 1 point apiece.

The game controls much as you'd expect, but with a bit of (unextreme) momentum play that affects your mobility and some interactive elements of the level design. IE, you'll be able to round curves smoothly, and some areas contain traps or elements that are timing sensitive or speed sensitive. Besides, nobody likes putt-putting everywhere.

There are 4 main kinds of weapons, each with uses that the level design and enemy design take into account. You can equip any two from a bonfire, or hot swap one upon acquiring a new one. Each type of weapon has 8 attacks, structured somewhat like special moves in fighting games, and each instance allows you a normal attack (often associated with tool-like uses or combo pokes) and two of these specials, which vary in damage/hit output and required stamina; so that two swords may result in different movesets.

Swords
-Cut objects like ropes
-Extra effective against fleshy/bleeding enemies
-Specials focus on mobility
-Balanced by having more limited range, and are accompanied by shields that can protect you from front-on projectiles (enchanted shields give a Pong-like effect)

AxeHammers
-Destroy breakable terrain that would otherwise require bombs
-Extra effective against solid enemies like metal/stone
-Specials focus on incurring extreme hit reactions, making enemies jugglable
-Balanced with less forgiving cooldown - extremes in hit reactions make up comboability if connected

Whips
-Can be used to swing around terrain, naturally...
-Extra effective against undead enemies. Obvious homage.
-Specials focus on entangling enemies, reducing or eliminating their mobility
-Balanced by higher windup, better-than-above range, sacrificing your own mobility while using it (kind of a Chessmaster sort of weapon)

Spears/Staffs
-Can be used to pole vault attack across gaps and obstacles, effectively cleaving enemies as you move
-Is especially effective against blocking/defensive types or hoards, best range overall
-Specials focus on zoning/space control, or attacking in multiple directions at once
-Balanced by being fast-acting, but doing only marginal damage per attack (IE: to encourage ranged battle)

Special outputs by level are usually: 1,1,1,2,3,3,5,8. If your starting weapon has high-level attacks, you'll probably want to begin by building up your stamina to take advantage of that. Spells work like that too, but are MvC-inspired projectiles for the most part, with "2" or sometimes a "3/5" being an enhancement effect, based on the type of magic.

Fire is for raw damage.
Electromagnetic is for meter manipulation and hitstun.
Wind is for mobility and pushback.
Water is for status effects/cursing and blessing.

ITEMS

Some core items like navigation tools (other than your weapons, I mean) and bombs are consistent, but a lot of the other items in the game generate effects from shuffled arrays as well. You can collect items, but can only quick-select 4 or 5 (via bonfires) to use at a time.

Books usually bestow certain knowledges upon you; like acting as a "Identify" for specific types of things, although one allows you to mingle with undead.

Potions have strange effects, *one* is a potion of incineration - the others are positive effects like levitation, fireproofing, full recovery. Brainstorming for a tightly relevant fourth, and I'm likely not going to mess with light/dark play.

Scrolls can summon monsters, curse or uncurse/bless (yourself or others), one is simply a map, one returns you to the last bonfire you were at. Going for one more effect here, too.

I forgot to mention food! Eating food will renew a 2:00 timer, that if it drains, will drop one heart container (1 HP if cursed, 2 if not) and reset. It's not immediate death/poison, but enough to maybe motivate players to keep moving around. Food will not stockpile or drop from enemies. It will immediately be applied upon collecting it, but it will also respawn when you hit bonfires. There's 8 types of food you can collect, and there will be one type the Hero dislikes. The effects of the array are:

+ 2 Hearts
+ 4 Stars
+ 4 Stamina
+ 2 Each
+ 8 Hearts
+ 2 Hearts / - 4 Stars
+ 2 Hearts / - 4 to Max Stamina (for :30)
- 2 Each but not fatal (if you dip below 1 Heart, it wraps around - it could be a totally unexpected game-changer!!)

SEARCHING

There will be invisible items in the game. There will be destructible and fake terrain in the game. There will be booby traps in the game. And there will be one important "search" command that upon using, will draw a brief flicker of attention to any of these suspicious details in the screen/level. What it won't do, however, is tell you what is what...  Well, hello there!

GAMEPLAY

To begin, you get geared up. The big megabosses wreak a little havoc in HomeTown, and Love disappears from there. A note remains: To find out what happened to her, recover the 7 Gemeralds and seek the truth in the Temple of Judgement. See you there!

SPOILER WARNING. There's more to it than that, naturally. But you'll find out about that later...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:55:49 AM by baconman » Logged

baconman
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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 02:18:43 AM »

On the note of your versus mode, here's how I would go about that:

1. Construct two identical-in-layout, different-in-progression (like powerup content) dungeons. You know, kinda how balance works in fighting games - they're not exactly the same, but some favor certain powers/tactics than others. Perhaps include a couple of triggers that can affect one another's progress, but not totally impede it. The tradeoff to being behind is that a map is generated by both players' progress; and you can see what room they're in on their dungeon.

2. Race your opponent(s) through said dungeon, while detouring to power yourself up. No stat-grinding, but have items like Heart Containers that give a set, tangible advantage, or enable different attacks/powers. Make sure the windup/cooldown and hit reactions correspond together, again, like a fighter. (I started with fighters, actually.)

3. At the end, give the first player there some kind of distinct advantage - not just advantageous positioning, but something that establishes that player as "the boss" for the others to try and defeat.

This part will likely prove the hardest of all to balance well, making an advantage that's worth sprinting ahead a little for, but not so much that it trumps all the dungeon-oriented growth. If anything, the advantage should be equal to 2 or 3 (likely 3, it works GREAT as a gaming multiplier!) upgrades worth of value, and have some kind of drawback that can be exploited, but only with good skill and positioning.
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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 09:14:35 AM »

One area that I think has been under utilized is in making the action portion better. 
For instance, the game Beyond Oasis seems to be a relatively middle of the road Action-RPG, but the combat in the game uses fighting game motions to make it something other than a button mashing (or button holding a la Secret of Mana) slog.  I think that there's a lot of design space that could be mined by making the action portion more exciting, or more tactical, or whatever.


p.s.
Alundra is also out on the PSN (at least in North America and Japan).
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J-Snake
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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 09:56:47 AM »

Thanks for so much input baconman, you have surely some valuable information to think about.
Like Fallsburg stated, action-depth is under-utilized. I really want to start with the combat-part and make it a worthy fighter-game on its own for the first. While I still try to see how both sides (the adventure and the vs-combat) can benefit from the system.

I want to give a rough idea for the first:
My idea is to have a strong focus on the combination of sword- and magic-play. The magic is the most interesting part here. I want some aesthetics and valuable relationships here. One idea I have and like suggests the following:

There are 6 spirits you can master. Each spirit has a counter-part like ying-yang:

Heat   opposed by   Frost
Light  opposed by   Darkness
Life   opposed by   Chaos

You can only cast the current spell chosen.
But you can quick-select one of 8 chosen (or even up to 32) spells in a fraction of a second (I developed a system that allows you to do it easily on a snes-like joypad).
So an important part to master is constantly preparing a proper spell depending on what your opponent is doing.
As example of a combat-situation:
The opponent casts the spell "fire-ground" which heats up the ground up to burning. Now in the proper time-window you are casting "frost-ground" which has the opposite effect. So the effect is nullified. It is also an example how an attack can serve as defense. I love to think this way.

How do you like the idea and my spirits for the first?


 
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baconman
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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2012, 03:47:57 PM »

Hold spell button, press one of the 8 directions (or a combination of XYBA equivalent), release to cast? That explains the magic system, and it sounds cool and doable - maybe combine it with fireball dynamics from MvC or AoE's like Chrono Trigger's spells and you'll have a really good magical combat system - but unless these spirits are within your weapons, how does the weaponplay factor into this? You could use a similar system for weapon-wielding too, for that matter.

I do agree with one consistency in your visions/designs - fighting game levels of depth in combat, and sense of multiplayer competition aspects. I love a good fighter as well, but it's tragic to see how it's so isolated/fragmented from other genres when clearly it's main purpose is to be an exciting and tactical combat system, which you can apply to basically any kind of game with combat in it. It's such a good option that it successfully endures as a standalone genre, why do other game styles not adopt more of it's principles?


FTR, ultimately my goal is to explore combinations of genres influences to create gaming experiences that don't feel so partial or fragmented - to combine the stronger or funner (IMO) aspects of different genres, and weave them together into a more "complete gaming experience." Most genres have been around so much that the experimentation within them has been pushed, and making a reasonably good game of any type is practically a science now moreso than an art (heck... even storytelling is close to that point - formulae exist becuase they work). I get the sense yours isn't too far off from there either.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2012, 12:02:54 PM »

Hold spell button, press one of the 8 directions, release to cast?
Basicly yes, but only for selection. So there are two buttons for spells, one for selection, the other for exectution. The freedom of an execution-button is needed because there are spells which depend on your looking-direction, just think about shooting.

You can also put some spells on your shield and the weapon. For example you can heat up your sword and use it for more damage or to defend spells which cast freeze-shots. If you time it right your fire-sword will hit the freeze-shot and the effect will be nullified. You can also bound some of the chaos-spirit to your shield. Then you can chase the opponent. By contact the spirit will flow over to him, causing confusion, weakness or whatever effect you so choose. It will give you immediate advantage in close range fight you can take advantage of. Just few examples.


Coming to the adventure part I am thinking your energy shall only be recovered by eating food. Sleep only recovers your mental freshness(spirit). I want to add a hunting component with rewarding stealth-elements, and an elegant and simplified but convincing and consistent way of flora and actual wild-life-simulation. This is really the part where next-gen-horse-power is really beneficial, despite of its oldschool-style, and I love it. This is really the part that justify the demand for more hardware-horse-power.

And yeah, totally with you with the lack of great combat-systems in action-rpgs.
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2012, 10:34:38 PM »

If you're going with a two-button setup, why not try a combo like:

L + YBXA = Enhancement Powers
R + YBXA = Offensive Powers (relative to facing direction)

It doesn't use any *more* buttons than your other approach, and it gives a more immediate input option.
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« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2012, 05:37:09 AM »

There is a need for art. END THREAD.
This. Seriously. 2D or 3D, I'm a sucker for games that the developers went through the trouble to make look pretty.

As for style, I'm a little more partial to the Illusions of Gaia and Terranigma school of gameplay than the Mana games or Zelda.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2012, 07:31:34 AM »

If you're going with a two-button setup, why not try a combo like:

L + YBXA = Enhancement Powers
R + YBXA = Offensive Powers (relative to facing direction)
It would be worth a consideration but I need to be economic to max out the use of the snes-like pad. Its resources are too limited. One disadvantage is that you still need to press 2 buttons simultaneously (instead of one) to perform a spell. At that moment two fingers are already reserved, potentially limiting you in simultaneous actions you can take.
But the bigger problem is that I already need R for locking the looking-direction (like in SoulBlazer) and L for evasion-mode(instead of walking you will make quick jumps).  

So instead I take the spell-change-characteristics into account and design the game- mechanics with respect to that. A spirit/spell-change doesn't happen immediately. It takes a certain time to transition to the chosen form (approx half of a second), regardless how fast your input is.
That is to prevent rewarding very quick fingers too much. I am actually someone who takes it into account. I am a fan of mind-gaming and alive fast-paced action but it shall not reward quick-fingers too much (because having quick fingers is a primitive skill). That is why I don't like the concept of convoluted super-moves in street fighter. They reward people with fast input skills too much. I know what I am talking about, I am one of them;)

I'm a little more partial to the Illusions of Gaia and Terranigma school of gameplay.
Yeah, Terranigma goes a bit more into direction I am heading but the visual style of Mana and Evermore is unmatched.
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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2012, 09:37:04 AM »

Oh yeah. Fucking "Geese Pretzels." Angry
They're actually not hard at all, just start with down, do two backward-sweeping 360s, and there you go. Somersault Justice commands have a simpler input like that, too.

And actually, speedier input is the whole reason HitBox is taking off, but that's a totally different discussion altogether! But I like how you're doing direction-locking, that's very Ikari Warriors of you (which I also liked for that kind of reason). There was also a directional offset for their attacks, which made positioning around terrain (and choosing what terrain to use for cover) important. And the quick-stepping is so Dark Souls, too. Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2012, 10:21:00 AM »

Oh yeah. Fucking "Geese Pretzels." Angry
They're actually not hard at all, just start with down, do two backward-sweeping 360s, and there you go. Somersault Justice commands have a simpler input like that, too.
That is really not the point. The point is that there can always be someone with quicker fingers than you. It is about the magnitude of advantage he gains just by exploiting primitive skills. That is why fighter-pros use an arcade-stick instead of a joypad. Because arcade sticks allow faster input, especially exploiting convoluted moves to give them the edge. That is what I want to minimize. You should be competitive with a joypad aswell.

btw. Do you recommend to check out Dark Souls? Have you played it?
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« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2012, 10:59:42 AM »

There is a need for art. END THREAD.
This. Seriously. 2D or 3D, I'm a sucker for games that the developers went through the trouble to make look pretty.

As for style, I'm a little more partial to the Illusions of Gaia and Terranigma school of gameplay than the Mana games or Zelda.

FYI, By art, I didn't mean VISUAL art, but artistic expression, as I think achievable through the creation of video games. I don't want people quoting me out of context. My opinions on aesthetic appeal are not included.
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« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2012, 11:02:01 AM »

Here is the philosophy I follow:
Regarding single-player on the top level we can see two things: designed paths vs simulation/sand-box. In general I believe it makes a poorer game when you tend towards one of these extremes. If you only force designed paths your game will lack options/depth. If you only go for sand-box/simulation your game will lack balance and higher-level gameplay-structures. What I potentially want is simulation, but if I just throw in the rules and let them flow things are unlikely to shape up the way they should. That is why I need to take the designers hand into this system in places necessary. So that at certain bounds the game is directed by designers construction(which is still consistent with the rules) but within the bounds the game is running by simulation. But regardless of single- or multiplayer, the consistency of game-mechanics are conserved. Everything is evolving around it.
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