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[stevesan]

When I say fixed angle, I mean basically how most top-down shooters work these days (Geometry Wars, Binding of Isaac). When I say rotating, I'm talking about this:



Most 2D shooters tend to be fixed angle. Is there a reason for this? I would think that rotating feels better, since it's more like an FPS...but few games seem to do rotating. Any reasons for this?

[Netsu]

I think the rotating camera is confusing for a top down game. Watching the Contra link makes me kinda dizzy.

[Danmark]

For a long time, technical constraints precluded rotating cameras in 2D games. 2.5D and 3D came to compete with 2D by the time rotated cameras were practical. So to some extent, it's unusual because it never became a trend, due to technology.

Netsu's right to call it it confusing as well (although it's not my experience). Fixed-angle exhibits far more coherence between frames, as do most 2.5D and 3D schemes.

[ink.inc]

dear god that video makes me nauseous

[eyeliner]

Heh, I was one of these days thinking of doing a shooter with rotating camera, like Contra III.

[ntdb]

The level geometry in the video linked is relatively complex compared to what is found in Geometry Wars and The Binding of Isaac. I think rotating the camera lends itself to navigating "corridors" and other FPS-like spaces.

Conversely, I always feel very out of sorts in an FPS when I enter a large, open room with enemies on all sides. A fixed angle camera allows the player to establish and maintain a good understanding of a space with many moving elements.

[My Escape]

In my opinion a top down shooter with a fixed camera feels more natural than a rotational one because of a gamer’s relation to the inputs and character.   
 
A fixed camera gives a constant bearing in the game world and because UP will always be UP it feels natural (even if via mechanics it becomes flipped, you know it’s flipped).  Using the rotational camera up becomes forward and without the camera being behind the player or set from a first person perspective it feels unnatural. 

Rotational cameras work well for linear A to B sequences, disorientation (horror/claustrophobia) or where up/forward is not directly related to bipedal motion.  An example of this would be to make a rocket that when you press UP accelerates, LEFT and RIGHT turns the environment around the rocket.

So in a nutshell for a shooter it’s probably bad but for something else it works really well and would be visually impressive.

[stevesan]

In my opinion a top down shooter with a fixed camera feels more natural than a rotational one because of a gamer’s relation to the inputs and character.   
 
A fixed camera gives a constant bearing in the game world and because UP will always be UP it feels natural (even if via mechanics it becomes flipped, you know it’s flipped).  Using the rotational camera up becomes forward and without the camera being behind the player or set from a first person perspective it feels unnatural. 

Rotational cameras work well for linear A to B sequences, disorientation (horror/claustrophobia) or where up/forward is not directly related to bipedal motion.  An example of this would be to make a rocket that when you press UP accelerates, LEFT and RIGHT turns the environment around the rocket.

So in a nutshell for a shooter it’s probably bad but for something else it works really well and would be visually impressive.

Hmm don't quite follow you here. I'm basically imaging WASD controls, but the camera is top-down. So W always makes your character (who is always facing up the screen) to go up the screen, etc. I'm not talking about fixed-camera with relative motion controls, like Asteroids (which I find a bit confusing, but manageable).

I do kind of buy the "motion sickness" argument, however. I wonder though if that's because of how Mode 7 did it, or that video in particular in which the graphics don't seem to have a 1:1 aspect ratio.

[Blodyavenger]

MyEscape has the point. In some cases, rotating camera can serve it's purpose but in your example, you I suggest using fixed camera because it's an action game, fast paced and those crazy rotations make you seriously dizzy.

Or even better, you can make that an option for the player to choose as he/she likes.

For all games I set up fixed camera if it's possible because I haven't found a good use for rotating camera in top down games so far.

[My Escape]

I was just commenting on where I’ve seen rotational cameras go wrong before.  It wasn’t 100% related to the video you linked.

I’m sorry about that. 

As for disorientation, design your game with it in mind.  For example long narrow corridors would cut down on rotation.  In larger environments you could position enemies at the opposite end of the player start/entry point.  This would enable the player to continue in the environment with very little rotation.  It’s just a thought.   

[stevesan]

I was just commenting on where I’ve seen rotational cameras go wrong before.  It wasn’t 100% related to the video you linked.

I’m sorry about that.  

As for disorientation, design your game with it in mind.  For example long narrow corridors would cut down on rotation.  In larger environments you could position enemies at the opposite end of the player start/entry point.  This would enable the player to continue in the environment with very little rotation.  It’s just a thought.  

That's a good point - maybe having excess rotation would be really annoying. I think I'll try both and see which one feels right..maybe just give the player both options. I wanna do, as a personal exercise, a DOOM clone but using the mini-map view...maybe the simplicity of the graphics (red/yellow/grey lines) would make motion sickness less of an issue? We'll see.

Something like this:

[Danmark]

You could have a scheme where the player can aim freely on the screen without rotating the camera, which itself requires some other input (2 keys for cw/ccw, holding the RMB and dragging, etc.).

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i think the dizziness effect might be reduced if you rotate the camera *slower* than in that video. slow rotation isn't as dizziness-inducing as fast rotation

that said i still would not recommend it for a serious game project; if you need to rotate a top-down view to see everything, that's a clue that your graphics probably aren't clear enough. but as an experiment for a short game, sure, have at it

[desadoc]

I developed a small test (maybe i'll end it later, make a game with it) where the player keeps aligned to the camera. Movement isn't too fast, neither rotation, and i added some delay between both and camera. It's still a bit confusing, but i think that helped a bit.

video:

[Sean A.]

For a bullet hell shooter like that I think a fixed camera is the only way to go. That video looked fine but with many bullets and ships and power ups it would just get way too confusing.

[desadoc]

I'm not sure. Maybe rotation helps to adjust your movements to bullet patterns.

I imagine two clear moments in the game, exploration, when it's not so bad to rotate while moving from room to room (in a dungeon crawler shmup), and combat, when you would just adjust a bit ship's orientation and leave it alone.

Or maybe no.

[HernanZh]

Hmm, I have to agree with Sean A. I don't see any advantages of rotating the camera, seems it would make it only harder to dodge bullets...
During exploration it might be ok though.

[Sean A.]

Well I think its kind of an interesting idea to rotate your ship in a bullet hell shooter if your ship isnt a perfect square, for example you could rotate it so that the skinny side faces the bullets to help dodge. In this case though just rotating the ship is fine, rotating the whole camera for something like that is just confusing

[Berick]

My game, Dread (free to download), is a top down shooter with a rotating camera, and I think it fits it very well.





In Dread's case, the combination of the rotating camera, rouge-like FOV, and building-style environment makes sense.

I have gotten a few complaints about it inducing motion-sickness from the trailer, but it doesn't seem to effect most who actually play it. Probably for the same reason that being a passenger in a car causes motion-sickness, but being the driver does not.

I agree with a lot of the other people in this thread that it depends on what type of top down game it is, and what kind of gameplay style you are going for.

[stevesan]

My game, Dread (free to download), is a top down shooter with a rotating camera, and I think it fits it very well.





In Dread's case, the combination of the rotating camera, rouge-like FOV, and building-style environment makes sense.

I have gotten a few complaints about it inducing motion-sickness from the trailer, but it doesn't seem to effect most who actually play it. Probably for the same reason that being a passenger in a car causes motion-sickness, but being the driver does not.

I agree with a lot of the other people in this thread that it depends on what type of top down game it is, and what kind of gameplay style you are going for.

Cool shit bro. That is more or less exactly what I wanted to make I was gonna just copy the Doom automap aesthetic.

To be honest, it does give me slliigggghhtt motion sickness, but there may be other reasons for that. Is there a reason you chose to go with the slightly pixelated look? That may contribute to some motion sickness. Hard to say.