next »

[tortoiseandcrow]

Maybe it's because I've been steeped in Souls games for the past two months, but the process of teaching players about the functioning of opaque systems has been on my mind quite a bit lately. I'd be curious to hear a bit of your guys' thinking about the process of teaching players how to understand the systems.

[Oystershell]

Am I right in thinking that this "big deadline" could be a tasty news update or such? Hmmmmm? 

[Christian]

In the early alphas, there were always four main things that I felt weren't communicated well
- Length of a rain cycle (fixed, now has a rain meter)
- Trying to find your way back to your shelter (fixed, now has a map)
- The depth of your moveset (sounds like there'll be a tutorial to help with that)
- The difference between a drop that instantly kills and one that will make you fall into another screen

As for the more obscure aspects, I imagine they're talking about stuff like the ecosystem relationships, the dynamic friend/foe element, learning about different food sources, the different animal uses (ie jetfrog jetski), etc.

[presidenthobbes]

- The difference between a drop that instantly kills and one that will make you fall into another screen

Haven't played any of the alpha builds, but I know a LOT of games with this problem(big issue in otherwise great games like shovel knight), and I agree there should probably something in place to help this.
Persoanlly I think the best fix would be if a slugcat approaches a dangerous pit, a distinguishable look of fear or worry should flash across it's face. Of course, this would still require you to approach the pit, so anything that's a ways away would still be a mystery 

[nnyei]

Abe's Oddysee had a system where every cliff which you could drop down from had small stones dropping from its edge every couple of seconds. Cliffs that lead to certain death didn't have any pebbles falling down. This was really neat because it worked both ways: when you saw small stones falling from above, you knew there was a platform you could get up to on the screen above you. The game was very clear in its visual language like that.

I have no idea if such a system could be useful to you guys, but I'm just saying it in case you're brainstorming about this.

[jamesprimate]

ohhh, good suggestions! we're exploring a couple ideas around this as well, but yeah its on the list 

[tortoiseandcrow]

You'd need to distinguish the rocks from the regular drops of water that fall down ambiently. You could probably get some sound cues in there as well - lots of echo near death drops, high wind, etc. You also might have rocks nearby such ledges that can be manually dropped down to listen for a sound, maybe with a minor screen shake or something so that it resembles the screen-shake that happens on a fall death.

I've also often thought that a simple dark gradient leading down into the drop would help to distinguish death drops from other ledges.

In all likelihood there probably isn't going to be one single solution that'll work, given the amount of environmental detail, and you might need a couple of different signs to make it clear. For any other mechanic I'd probably think that sort of thing was overkill, but dying because of a poorly signposted death drop is no fun at all.

[Teod]

(big issue in otherwise great games like shovel knight)

There is a clear difference in Shovel Knight, if I recall correctly. Gradient to black - death, normal background - safe, sparkles - use fishing rod.

For Rain World I think a good solution would be to simply not have any off-screen space and let the player see their fall to the death across a few screens. After a few times players will simply learn not to jump down the holes they haven't explored the bottom of. Although that may clash with the map-uncovering desires of people - having a few empty areas that can't be filled would be annoying. And that would significantly increase level design workload as you would need a lot more rooms, even if mostly empty.

Also, a semi-related question. In the beta gameplay trailer there are two separate rooms positioned vertically from each other (clear gap in the map at 1:58). Can player drop from one to another, or jumping from the top one is deadly?

[tortoiseandcrow]

let the player see their fall to the death across a few screens.

I always did enjoy when this happened in the Oddworld games. Even though I was annoyed I missed the cue, it was more satisfying to see the fall than to just have Abe jump off screen with a wail and a thud. It somehow seemed less arbitrary?

[presidenthobbes]

After some close examination of shovel knight it seems there is usually a gradient to black in death pits, but not always. Also, on the levels with darker  backgrounds, it is extremely hard to tell.

My takeaway here is that a game with light/dark mechanics like rain world cannot rely solely on a darkness gradient.

[jamesprimate]

ah yeah its a little strange. the "fall out of screen" aspect was part of the previous "one screen = one room" design paradigm from the alpha, which we moved away from significantly, and most regions have none of this issue, opting instead for pits that have bottoms, and generally offering alternate routes, etc.

however, there are 2 aerial regions that we have that are built around this "fall out of screen" death-drop mechanic, and its impossible to go back now. I think if we firmly establish it that "in this region you fall down" and add some visual indication, might be clear enough.

[tortoiseandcrow]

If it's up in the air, I don't think there's likely to be any problem with signposting at all.

[Christian]

ah yeah its a little strange. the "fall out of screen" aspect was part of the previous "one screen = one room" design paradigm from the alpha, which we moved away from significantly, and most regions have none of this issue, opting instead for pits that have bottoms, and generally offering alternate routes, etc.

however, there are 2 aerial regions that we have that are built around this "fall out of screen" death-drop mechanic, and its impossible to go back now. I think if we firmly establish it that "in this region you fall down" and add some visual indication, might be clear enough.

So, it's only in those regions now? I'm going by the alpha, which is a year old, but those kinds of death were even in Suburban.

It makes sense for the aerial regions though

[Dinomaniak]

Just a suggestion - to differentiate the regions where you fall and there's another platform, from the regions where falling means death, you could add bubbles coming up ( or vapors, or anything of the sort ) to the latter.

[Profesh]

shockingly little tbh! we have some insane deadline that were trying to meet right now, but its mostly testing and bug-hunts and touch-up stuff, trying to get the experience right.

the past few weeks have been wild though! i find it hard to find a place to begin to talk about it. we've been living in an echo chamber for years (well aware!), so having it going through legit testing by normal gamer types has been seriously eye-opening. not in a bad way necessarily, just that its quite apparent that a lot of the cool systems of the game are completely opaque, and so now were trying to find ways of making it so you dont need to read 284 pages of devblog to be able to see some of them.

I edit and proof marketing copy for a retailer of high-end luxury goods, and am habitually prone to noticing textual errors in my favourite games which—however minute—invariably strike me as both avoidable and somehow all the more distracting for the title's typically immaculate presentation elsewhere.

Obviously, having perused all 284 pages I assume that what little legible text there is would be functional rather than expositional in nature and as such, free from late-game spoilers, so if you have need of someone suitably qualified to make that all-important final pass prior to release then I'd be happy to lend you my eyes.

Otherwise: godspeed, and may your crunch be ever bearable.

[Profesh]

(big issue in otherwise great games like shovel knight)

There is a clear difference in Shovel Knight, if I recall correctly. Gradient to black - death, normal background - safe, sparkles - use fishing rod.

For Rain World I think a good solution would be to simply not have any off-screen space and let the player see their fall to the death across a few screens. After a few times players will simply learn not to jump down the holes they haven't explored the bottom of. Although that may clash with the map-uncovering desires of people - having a few empty areas that can't be filled would be annoying. And that would significantly increase level design workload as you would need a lot more rooms, even if mostly empty.

A related problem—and one not so readily pre-empted—arises when the player descends a vertical pole to the bottom edge of the screen, quite reasonably expecting to transition into the 'room' below but instead falling to their death because the end of the pole wasn't telegraphed beforehand (if you'll pardon the pun).

[Oystershell]

can't wait can't wait can't wait     

But seriously, we're starving here! Coming form a guy who discovered this far too late to be an alpha backer, I have no Rainworld fix! Give me some of your delicious gifs, or your scrumptious audio, or your delectable screenshots.

Keep plugging , though, while you're at it!

[gimymblert]

I could not wait I don't have time 

[Teod]

however, there are 2 aerial regions that we have that are built around this "fall out of screen" death-drop mechanic, and its impossible to go back now. I think if we firmly establish it that "in this region you fall down" and add some visual indication, might be clear enough.

I figured another possible way of warning the player about these drops. You have this map-drawing on exploration, right? In those two regions whenever the player uncovers a room on his map, he should also uncover as much empty space underneath it as possible. So when looking at the map he can clearly see that there's nothing to land on. That empty space doesn't have to exist in actual game - just on the map would be okay.

[presidenthobbes]

I actually really like the idea of using the map as a fix for the long fall pits, but I think we could go even simpler. Simply mark the "fall edges" of rooms in the map with red or another bright "danger" color to indicate progressing that way is death--in the map of course, not the actual room.