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airman4
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« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2015, 02:53:10 PM » |
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Yep the game will be easier
For the "plain gameplay" , i'll add new stuff and tweak the game of 2012 to make it better.
We'll see what happens.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2015, 03:17:53 PM » |
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It's mostly collision and control, before moving to adding stuff, the "core" should be solid. Adding stuff is a usual mistake to cover up weakness, it's expensive and don't really help.
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airman4
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« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2015, 03:44:33 PM » |
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Ahh , i see
The core gameplay is the first thing i did when i started the remaster of the game , 1.1 ver.
Collision box of the heroine is a square now , many ways of playing the game through different controls (i didnt fully worked it yet , but you can duck with S or down key arrow)
level design will aslo change
i'll probably tweak every scene of the game
Now i didnt showed fully video of the new build , i need to do that , maybe next week
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gimymblert
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« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2015, 03:56:59 PM » |
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Yeah but is the character has some input frame? like for example you decrease a variable since the last fall from a platform (not jump) so we can jump even though there is no collision? It's important as some screen have some lag (up to 3 frames or even more) so the moment the player see the character falling she is already falling. Basically it's a variable you have that reset to 0 when you jump or full when hitting ground (or wall for wall jump), then decrease if the character goes from ground to air without jumping. Once it hits zero the character can't jump from a fall state. All good platformers have such stuff, it's the first thing I noticed when I played the game as it makes the game difficult to control in an annoying way. Another tip (for wall jumping) is to have premature collision before the actual collision for input sake, so the player have a good margin of control). Then small visual feedback help too. I would also advised you to learn anything that's here: http://gamasutra.com/blogs/ItayKeren/20150511/243083/Scroll_Back_The_Theory_and_Practice_of_Cameras_in_SideScrollers.phpThese kind of small tweak are what makes the difference between games before the art, the actions and lore kicks in. These are a given for most dev, it can be perplexing to not understand what's wrong when you start. I don't know how deep is your design literacy, I can point you to source if you want more. It's like animation, concept like takes, secondary actions, line of actions, keyframes, squash and stretch, etc ... stuff you ought to know to make the difference between efforts and animation. |
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airman4
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« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2015, 04:31:49 PM » |
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Yeah but is the character has some input frame? like for example you decrease a variable since the last fall from a platform (not jump) so we can jump even though there is no collision? It's important as some screen have some lag (up to 3 frames or even more) so the moment the player see the character falling she is already falling. Basically it's a variable you have that reset to 0 when you jump or full when hitting ground (or wall for wall jump), then decrease if the character goes from ground to air without jumping. Once it hits zero the character can't jump from a fall state. All good platformers have such stuff, it's the first thing I noticed when I played the game as it makes the game difficult to control in an annoying way. Another tip (for wall jumping) is to have premature collision before the actual collision for input sake, so the player have a good margin of control). Then small visual feedback help too. I would also advised you to learn anything that's here: http://gamasutra.com/blogs/ItayKeren/20150511/243083/Scroll_Back_The_Theory_and_Practice_of_Cameras_in_SideScrollers.phpThese kind of small tweak are what makes the difference between games before the art, the actions and lore kicks in. These are a given for most dev, it can be perplexing to not understand what's wrong when you start. I don't know how deep is your design literacy, I can point you to source if you want more. It's like animation, concept like takes, secondary actions, line of actions, keyframes, squash and stretch, etc ... stuff you ought to know to make the difference between efforts and animation. Input frame You mean the game was too rigid with the light puzzle collision ? Don't worry I heard critique about that too It should be smoother Before , after lighting up a platform you could die just by walking too fast on it Now if i misunderstood you , then sorry but i think that was what you are talking about Also i wonder what version did you played. edit thanks for the scrolling link |
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gimymblert
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« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2015, 05:52:38 PM » |
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I need to retry the game, sure lol I'm talking pure input, "input frame" is a little window to introduce input after an event have already be taken place. For example shortly after the fall of a platform to allow the player to jump. It's relative to the number of frame drawn to compensate for player's reaction's times by giving some more. Can be use for anything too critical by giving the player more time to respond. You need to track the frequency at which the game operate, it impacts control. It must be as consistent as possible. Generally game operate at 30fps or 60fps, that mean reaction time happen within interval of 0.016 s for 60 fps or 0.033 for 30 fps. To understand more about it : http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1942/programming_responsiveness.php?print=1http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3725/measuring_responsiveness_in_video_.php?print=1On top of that TV introduce lag too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lagAction puzzle game tend to have large input frame, action game tend to have short input frame. Basically think that when an image is shown, the action was already happening in code, so what the player see is already 1 frame late, so when he see it, he input something. Let's admit he is a robot and as soon the image is there he push the button, so that makes 2 frame late, because the action was calculated, then the image shown, now it has to process the input to calculate the next frame image, which mean that between seeing an image and seeing the consequence of the input, there is 4 frames. The limit to human reaction time is between 110ms and 1s, with intermediate time like 320ms and 840ms. This has to be taken account of when designing control. Of course in the game the player can anticipate long before so it's not pure reaction time, but these number has to be known. It's not about the "game" itself, just the control, I wasn't talking about the lighting up mecanics nor the collision. |
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gimymblert
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« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2015, 06:03:57 PM » |
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And I have talk about input buffer too I'm not sure it's applicable here (more for fighting game) but who know if you find a clever use to make control feel better?
Don't hesitate to google stuff like that, there is blog that amply talk about those in depth just like the camera system. Once you get those basics down (mostly the logic behind to come up with your own solution) the remaining will shine (the actual game, visual and lore)
Also are you still programming on stencyl? I know almost nothing about it's viability to make complex game.
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airman4
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« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2015, 12:13:07 AM » |
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Hey
I'll try to measure the responsivness , your links are interesting
My game would be between 30 and 60 fps , i'm thinking 40 fps maybe
For stencyl yeah it can be complex , for the movment i didnt designed them , i used a kit and made some changes.
Input buffering i know about since a long time , now how to code it i don't ,but in my game i dont know if it's vital or no , we'll see
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airman4
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« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2015, 07:40:31 AM » |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTPgvqaOI74&feature=youtu.beI did this , but i dont know if it's good ? Can you measure with that video for example ? My game is currently running at low 20 fps (it's a wip so it's normal) edit New video , but showing off the game a bit very work in progress , and captured with Vita , sorry no HD rendition there
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« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 08:21:18 AM by airman4 »
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airman4
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« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2015, 05:33:40 AM » |
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 One click away of selling the game i think I'm there (there is a green button at the bottom but facebook cropped it ) Now , i have to finish the remastering : -I have rebuild the HUD - rebuild the Pause (the HUD appears in pause now ) - Tweaked the Puzzle behaviors platforms - Re-worked some animations (like the jump and the double jump) - Animation for wall jump is total new ( to wall jump you have to jump again when she touch the wall and after it's up to you ) - The Main menu is totally re-worked (it was hard to me but i'm proud) - The puzzles in the game will get re-worked (easier , it will be ) - A new costume have been added(already shown here) Hope i'll be able to get some beta testers from steamworks http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=150968454For those who missed it. |
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« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 05:44:50 AM by airman4 »
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gimymblert
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« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2015, 02:43:05 PM » |
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Hello, the graphism are amazing!
I forgot to answer to the previous discussions :/ I was looking for clearer example since you aren't necessarily exposed to some basis I'm talking about. Making action game is always delicate and the intricacy of control and its design are precise, that's why I'm sometimes hesitant to funnel you that path. Especially that it seems that part of the problem come from the fact you are limited by scratch (for example the garbage collector is a problem as it steal frame from time to time and impact controls during the lag it makes).
However I think if you made RPG that would be amazing with your visual and story! Also less technical problem on gameplay!
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gimymblert
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« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2015, 02:46:11 PM » |
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To finish the discussion about control lag https://youtu.be/RTjY2CyLTV4?t=510that's how you are supposed to do it, one single press and counting frame until it react. Just playing is not good, it must be a simple and clear action with clear view on input and screen. |
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gimymblert
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« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2015, 02:55:42 PM » |
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Also I introduced the notion of buffer but forget why I was talking about it  you need it for air -> ground -> air Why? if the player press the jump button just before touching ground, it won't register and it will lead to error, so having a buffer allow it to jump as soon as it touch the ground depending to the frame windows of the buffer. This is especially important in your game because it ask for quick successive jump and walljump to not die. Similarly having a wall check that allow for some wiggle room before the actual collision might also help. In someway the time after contact you introduced on the platform is a form of buffer, however it still need a visual feedback, for example having the platform be an temporary intermediate state that tell it will turn mortal with an animation (color shift?) is good design to have. This latter is especially important for teaching your (new) player the mechanics. edit: when making action game the FPS is very important, it's very important that the frame rate is CONSISTENT and don't vary, if possible on all platform. 2d games like yours should not suffer from framerate drop even on old hardware. I guess if you want to continue action game you should start looking at other engine and learn to actually code (scratch is supposed to be an intro to that, expect of bricks you actually type the text). |
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airman4
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« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2015, 03:05:53 PM » |
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To finish the discussion about control lag https://youtu.be/RTjY2CyLTV4?t=510that's how you are supposed to do it, one single press and counting frame until it react. Just playing is not good, it must be a simple and clear action with clear view on input and screen. I'm downloading that video |
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gimymblert
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« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2015, 03:34:06 PM » |
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lol Just the part at the timestamp is relevant not the whole video, it's why I took so long, I was still searching for a better self contain video.
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airman4
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« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2015, 03:52:11 PM » |
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lol Just the part at the timestamp is relevant not the whole video, it's why I took so long, I was still searching for a better self contain video.
I saw it , I did the same but my camera is shitty and i did that with my keyboard Anyway personnally i think the controls are good now i focus on the graphics now , we'll see the rest later I have problem with compiling (again ) |
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gimymblert
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« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2015, 03:55:46 PM » |
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Okay not pressurizing you.
I'm just trying to pass relevant subtle information to you you may or may not know to make you grow as a game dev.
Though it's not quite the same if you refer to the video you post. Not at all.
Good luck, focus on your strength.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2023, 10:32:03 PM » |
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congrats!
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