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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperBusinessJustification for crowd funding?
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ANtY
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2012, 11:20:16 AM »

Salary makes things easier, and if you're collaborating on a game with someone how are u gonna share the money? You pay him and yourself salaries, not count his living costs.
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Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2012, 05:28:13 PM »

yes because it's really that easy to do everything on your own / find someone (who isn't a flake) to collaborate with

youre livin in a dream world, bro
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Chris Koźmik
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« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2012, 01:17:50 AM »

Well, the "bare minimum to survive" part is flawed. Adult males are supposed to make enough money for them to survive, for their kids to survive, for their pregnant wife which can't work right now to survive, some money to help their eldery parents, emergency savings in case something goes wrong so your family don't starve, money to pay taxes so the country has funds to pay for essectial public services, money to pay off mortage of your house so your kids don't have to live on the streets, and a bit of extra money so you can take your family to Hawaii vacations once in their life time. Usually, you don't earn these "bare minimum money" when making games Smiley

But if you are a teenager or a student, why not, you always have a safety net and extremely low costs of living, I guess you can ignore the salary part them.
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leonelc29
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« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2012, 02:39:56 AM »

Well, the "bare minimum to survive" part is flawed. Adult males are supposed to make enough money for them to survive, for their kids to survive, for their pregnant wife which can't work right now to survive, some money to help their eldery parents, emergency savings in case something goes wrong so your family don't starve, money to pay taxes so the country has funds to pay for essectial public services, money to pay off mortage of your house so your kids don't have to live on the streets, and a bit of extra money so you can take your family to Hawaii vacations once in their life time. Usually, you don't earn these "bare minimum money" when making games Smiley
it's not "flawed", really, it just some of your point doesn't even count as the "bare minimum" we're talking about.

make enough money for them, their wife(or maybe husband, if you prefer) and their kids to survive, money to pay taxes, money to pay rent and bill is the bare minimum, which make sure the developer can concentrate with his/her development work and deliver in time and fast. The rest is just some sort of extra money to entertain oneself, which is not.

And about the pregnant wife, you know, when she did actually have a full-time job on a company, the company will still pay her when she's on pregnancy leave, so saying "pregnant wife which can't work right now to survive" is just plain wrong. And hey, who would want a wife when they don't have saving throughout the developing work and have to depend some of the money on crowd funding to fund their living?
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ANtY
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« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2012, 09:07:02 AM »

I mainly agree with Archibald, but he exaggerated a bit, this:

And hey, who would want a wife when they don't have saving throughout the developing work and have to depend some of the money on crowd funding to fund their living?
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« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2012, 09:57:06 AM »

Again, I am not saying indies shouldn't make a profit. I am just trying to look at the perspective of the contributor\donator\supporter. The crowd who give indies their money.
Let me ask you, when the supporters\crowd shouldn't donate to crowd funding? When would you donate? When you won't?
I think I saw a few kickstarters who seem to find excuses and reasons why they need the money, when they are not stating the real reason. That is because the real reason might be a lot less popular...
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ANtY
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« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2012, 10:15:30 AM »

I guess that the deal breaker is still the game, not the reason it's authors need money for.
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« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2012, 02:56:03 PM »

Again, I am not saying indies shouldn't make a profit. I am just trying to look at the perspective of the contributor\donator\supporter. The crowd who give indies their money.

You still don't get it. Crowd funding isn't about giving developers profit right out of the gate. It's to give the developers an opportunity to focus completely on making the game and make it happen faster than if a) the developer worked on it as a side project or b) if the developer saved up money first and then worked on it full time.
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Garthy
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« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2012, 05:21:32 PM »


Crowd funding isn't about giving developers profit right out of the gate. It's to give the developers an opportunity to focus completely on making the game and make it happen faster than if a) the developer worked on it as a side project or b) if the developer saved up money first and then worked on it full time.

I think that this is an excellent summary.

One important thing to note of course is, lacking a benefactor of some sort, the money to pay the bills has to come from *somewhere*. Perhaps a publisher or investor is willing to front this money, perhaps it is crowdsourced, or perhaps the developer has saved up a chunk of change and is willing support themselves.

As to the source of funding, at some point you have to convince someone that handing over money to you to support your project is worthwhile. For self-funding, you have to convince yourself. Wink For a publisher or investor, they will have their standards that you must meet.

For something crowdsourced, you have a pool of x people who hear about your calls for funding, of which y people will consider that it is worthwhile. Rather than convincing one investor to take a significant risk, you are convincing y people to take a lesser risk. You have to have an attractive pitch of some sort- it might be your personal star power, or the strength of a past game, or that you're willing to fill a neglected market niche. Each of those x people have their standards as to whether or not they will invest. For any significant x, y will be less than x, ie. there were people who were not convinced. Most of the time, y will be non-zero as well, ie. you have convinced some people to take the risk.

PompiPompi, you have your standards on what people should and shouldn't do in their kickstarter projects, and this will drive the projects that you choose to support. A developer who wants *your* support will have to meet *your* standards. However, the important thing to realise is that with crowdsourced funding, everyone has their own standards, and any developer needs to convince sufficient people to fund it, but doesn't have to convince *everyone*. It is possible, in fact, I'd say very bleeding likely, that the benefit of getting the support of people who insist that the developer live on basic subsistence wages only simply isn't worth the cost. In such a position, I would personally be chasing the group of people who would rather see me on a proper living income.

PompiPompi, you have every right to hold the position that you have. One thing to note however is that if your standards are too high, and the impositions you would place too onerous, then unless you're offering a lot personally (eg. you regularly give out $10k funding packages to people who meet your requirements), then people may simply look at what you ask, say "too hard", and move on to the next person. If the fruit at the top of the tree looks just like the fruit elsewhere on the tree, I'm not going to get out my ladder to get that bit of fruit. I'll just pick from the lower-hanging fruit instead, or perhaps from the next tree, and fill my basket that way.

I would suggest that given the response so far in this thread, your standards *might* be a bit high, and as such, there may be few willing to make the effort to meet them.

Also, a final thought: You would appear to see any amount above subsistence income as a profit? I think that an argument could be made that profit is any amount above the wage that the same person could get working a stable job for someone else, and as such many developers working on such a project are taking a *loss*. I think in many cases many developers are willing to take a hit on their potential income to make their project happen. In fact, sometimes the reduced amount they would pay themselves is part of the pitch; that they're willing to give up a better life to make the project happen.
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Radix
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« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2012, 08:54:36 PM »

Again, I am not saying indies shouldn't make a profit. I am just trying to look at the perspective of the contributor\donator\supporter. The crowd who give indies their money.

You still don't get it. Crowd funding isn't about giving developers profit right out of the gate. It's to give the developers an opportunity to focus completely on making the game and make it happen faster than if a) the developer worked on it as a side project or b) if the developer saved up money first and then worked on it full time.
c) opportunity to work on a specific project which would otherwise be deferred/cancelled/not happen in favour of other things (as in the case of Double Fine). Sometimes the whole "do it in your spare time" thing isn't applicable.
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Chris Koźmik
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« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2012, 04:06:55 AM »

getting the support of people who insist that the developer live on basic subsistence wages only simply isn't worth the cost. In such a position, I would personally be chasing the group of people who would rather see me on a proper living income.
I would also add that as a devoloper I would feel insulted by players that expect me to make games on a bare minimum income. I'm not a slave, I'm a human being too. If they feel that way they are free to find someone else to make games for them.
The love goes both ways. The developer make games so the players are happy. The players are providing money so the developer is happy. The developer is not striving to make a bare minimum game that would bring the most optimized income, the player is not striving to pay the bare minimum for the game. One sided love won't work.
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« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2012, 09:01:31 AM »

I am playing the devil's advocate now... then, why would the developer sell the game for money and not give it for free if he already get paid a salary to make the game?
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« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2012, 09:51:03 AM »

that...up to the developer, i think.
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2012, 11:05:56 AM »

I am playing the devil's advocate now... then, why would the developer sell the game for money and not give it for free if he already get paid a salary to make the game?

Why would anybody give money to support the development of a game if everybody else just gets it for free afterwards?
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« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2012, 01:30:14 PM »

Ask the people who keep funding the development of Dwarf Fortress.
Feeling you've contributed to something getting made has value, has it not?
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« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2012, 01:41:16 PM »

Dwarf Fortress is an anomaly. It's the only game on a somewhat larger scale that's survived for that long only on donations that I can think of. I'd like to see if a Kickstarter could be successful if you got nothing except for a completely free game for everyone, though.
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ANtY
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« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2012, 03:49:39 PM »

I am playing the devil's advocate now... then, why would the developer sell the game for money and not give it for free if he already get paid a salary to make the game?
Because the kickstarter campaign never (maybe it does in DoubleFine's case) covers the whole development cost and at the end you're already in debts and other kind of things and then you have no cash to develop the next game if you'd give the first one for free?
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leonelc29
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« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2012, 09:07:47 PM »

i guess people funding the free project is because the reward for the pledge is tempting, like already print out poster(good quality), sound-track(assuming they're gonna sells it afterward), or somehow get yourself into an npc inside the game. well, the most important thing is, they like your work and somehow wanna help you.
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ANtY
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« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2012, 03:25:40 AM »

About the "what are u going to spend the money on"

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/winterkewlgames/yogventures

they got like a billion and they didn't even tell what they're going to spend it on so you're wrong Pompi
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Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2012, 11:52:59 AM »

they also already have a huge fanbase
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