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[Kinaetron]

Their point was that IGF need to pick a route and just stick with it. Is it a competition for the best game or is it a scholarship to highlight small games no one has never heard of ?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

that's up to the individual judge really. my impression, and i've said this before in this thread, is that it works like this:

for the finalists, you're more likely to become a finalist if your game is known and popular

for the actual winners, you're more likely to win if you are the least known game in your category

so basically the winners usually wind up being the "semi-known" games rather than true unknowns or the most popular game of the year

[Blademasterbobo]

it also seems like they flip flop every few years due to criticism or something

monaco wins

then minecraft and fez win (fez somewhat ironically since phish voted against smb winning cuz of an xbla deal but i digress)

now cart life wins

etc

all current information suggests that the judging process is not remotely objective. which fits if it's trying to be the indie oscars, i suppose.  

edit: i'm kinda starting to lean towards the position that it'll never be remotely objective, as there aren't really any awards shows which are. i don't know that it's worth arguing about anymore, since it's probably not possible to "fix." especially with how defensive everyone gets over it.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i don't mind awards that aren't objective; there are different kinds of biases. an award system that is biased in favor of their friends is worse than a system that is biased in favor of unknowns, or a system that is biased in favor of innovation and originality, or a system that is biased in favor of addicting gameplay

there are also smaller genre biases involved, such as a common bias against console-style rpgs (no traditional console-style rpg (a game like dragon quest or final fantasy) was ever nominated for an award and it's inconceivable that one could ever win the igf)

i think the point of criticism of the igf and discussion over its biases is *not* necessarily to ever fix the problem, but simply to make people aware of the problem so that they can make informed decisions. for instance, if someone makes games that the igf, historically, tends to ignore, they should know about it, so they don't waste the $95 fee

so there are people like hanako and cliffski who know their games won't do well in the igf and don't enter it anymore, but every year there are new suckers who believe their game could do well when it's metaphysically impossible for their game to win the igf, and those people should be warned of the biases involved

this would actually be good for the igf judges as well, since they won't have to sift through so much stuff that they would never vote for

[Blademasterbobo]

i just realized something: the igf winners page doesn't say who won narrative. who won that?

[Uykered]

kart guy.

[Kinaetron]

it also seems like they flip flop every few years due to criticism or something

monaco wins

then minecraft and fez win (fez somewhat ironically since phish voted against smb winning cuz of an xbla deal but i digress)

now cart life wins

etc

all current information suggests that the judging process is not remotely objective. which fits if it's trying to be the indie oscars, i suppose.  

edit: i'm kinda starting to lean towards the position that it'll never be remotely objective, as there aren't really any awards shows which are. i don't know that it's worth arguing about anymore, since it's probably not possible to "fix." especially with how defensive everyone gets over it.

That was the point I was trying to drive at. They just really need to state exactly what the IGF is for, so everyone knows how to judge relatively and entrants know off the bat if it's worth them entering or not.

At the very least it will be consistent instead of this weird relative unknown / Indie superstar winning shit that's going on now  

[Tuba]

We're getting to the point where it won't make sense to have IGF and GDC Awards as two different things, it's nice to see Spelunky, Hotline Miami, FTL and Mark of the Ninja competing against big budget titles like Mass Effect 3.

Not to mention Journey, the game with the smaller budget among the nominees, winning most of the prizes.

Great to see that people are starting to pay more attention to the game itself instead of the production values.

[moi]

like most award shows, it's a marketing scam

[cplhasse]

there are also smaller genre biases involved, such as a common bias against console-style rpgs (no traditional console-style rpg (a game like dragon quest or final fantasy) was ever nominated for an award and it's inconceivable that one could ever win the igf)

Can you name any indie RPG that was executed as well as for example Super Meat Boy was as a platformer? When you're working in such a well defined genre you need exceptional execution to stand out, or you need to step slightly outside the genre (like Fez).

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@cplhasse: sure,

for consoles-style rpgs: barkely shut up and jam, the spirit engine 2, the way, exit fate, sword of jade, cute knight, cthulhu saves the world, recettear, the aveyond series

for western-style rpgs: the geneforge series, avadon, and the avernum series

i haven't been keeping up with indie games in recent years so others may know more (check out http://indierpgs.com/ for full coverage of indie rpgs), but i'd consider all of the ones i named to be better rpgs than super meat boy is a platformer. in particular, it'd put geneforge 2 in my top 10 games that i've ever played, in any genre.

[cplhasse]

That's high praise, but maybe you don't hold Meat Boy in as high regard as I do.

I'll check out some of the games you mentioned though.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i liked super meat boy; i never actually finished the game, but i got to world five or so. i think it's pretty good; i wouldn't put it in the top 10 of platformers ever, but definitely in the top 100. i'd put it around the level of ninja gaiden 2 and rescue rangers (both for nes). it's no super mario bros 3, but it compares pretty well against second-tier platformers

geneforge 2 on the other hand, despite having pretty terrible graphics (vogel really needs to get a competent artist), has a far better story, gameplay, world, setting, etc., than pretty much any other rpg that i can think of. as far as i have played, the AAA industry hasn't made a RPG in the last few decades that's even comparable to it; the last that i can think of was planescape torment back in the 90s.

[Dragonmaw]

vogel really needs to get a competent artist

He did. Look at Avadon and the Avernum remake.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i've played those. i would not call that art very good. it's better, but still amateur. in particular the sprite size proportion to the screen size is still quite poor. compare these two:

https://impulsestore.gamestop.com/images/product_gfx/avadon_ss(3).jpg - avadon

http://img.brothersoft.com/screenshots/softimage/g/geneforge_4-_rebellion-184632-2.jpeg - geneforge 4

the first of those is obviously better than the second of those, and a big improvement. but neither of those is what i'd call good graphics.

[Dragonmaw]

It's about on par with old-school RPGs, so I'm okay with it.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

that depends on how old school you want to get, but i wouldn't even say that avadon's visuals are on par with baldur's gate or fallout 1 yet. and those are like 20 years ago. avadon's graphics are better than like, the early ultima games though, yeah

[Blademasterbobo]

was legend of grimrock entered? if it was and wasn't a finalist for anything, that's pretty crazy

dum why u erase post

[Tuba]

Grimrock is one of the best games I've played last year. So underrated.

[Zaphos]

was legend of grimrock entered? if it was and wasn't a finalist for anything, that's pretty crazy

dum why u erase post

searching google for "site:igf.com grimrock" found nothing, so probably not.