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[moi]

AFAIK it's just a "closed walls" android appstore.
IMHO it's better to just do stock android games (especially when the VITA isn't a big success)

For indie games getting lost in a sea of content much like the Android/iphone seems like it'd be much more scary than a system with 100,000 users with no games to play.

How long do you think before the VITA appstore is filled with "jump jump banana" type of crap?
You underestimate the dedication of flash-crap-artists. They will fill any appstore with their shit in no time. Even the blackberry playbook store is full of endless run style of 2-day crap.
The good devellopmenet environment will appear to them as a craptastic way of porting their masterpieces to a new platform.

[R.D.]

C# isn't an unusual language to program games in - what with XNA, Unity (which runs on all major platforms) and Second Life using it too. C# is also the main language for developing tools in the industry so it's not really a big shock to see it leak over to actual game development.

I always admire those masochistic people you try t do something goog looking in XNA. So far I only know 2 (Having an XBOX an a lot of games) Terraria and Secrest of Grindea. I don't want to know the amount of work you need to put in to make it run like you want.
I don't like Unitiy much btw. It's nice if you just have an idea but for anything more then pong you probalty want to pay money I don't have (Why do I want to pay money for Shader Support anyway? Not that It's hard to implement...).

It's pretty much equivalent to Java in speed as much as it matters. Doesn't Java still have generic collections where it has to unbox each object even though you've explicitly told it the type?

I can't agreee here sorry I worked with C# an had a lot of problem with the .NET not being able to make the nice optimizations Hotspot does (I think that is because it does not optimize by method). I really liked C# in the beginning but If I had to use it for games, I surely never use XNA again.
What do you mean with unbox o.o Don't tell me you one of those "I only see Java from first release perspective" ?

Code:

List<SomeType> list = new ArrayList<SomeType>();
SomeType type = new SomeType();
list.add(type);

SomeType type2 = list.get(0) // or list.get(type) it all returns a reference

Also with Oracle (owners of Java) currently suing Google because of Davik (Java virtual machine) I could see a strong case for staying away from Java until the Oracle stops being mental (probably not anytime soon). Also maybe we'd have to develop in Eclipse  - I think I'd rather be stabbed

Nah, that's something nobody cares a shit really. I mean Apple is suing everything which looks like an apple. Sometimes lawyer are lawyer imho...
And don't be a dig about IDE's Some like them and some others like others, so what?

[JOBA]

Why is it weird?
It's very similar to Java, but has more "modern" features.

The only major downside to C# is the whole Microsoft licensing/patent thing, but i'm not sure to what degree it applies to Mono.

There are more downsides, like the fact that C# is what Java was 10 years ago. Which basically means compared to Java it's slower. Also C# has no "how-to" for code. Nearly every C# programm looks different. The only Code Convention is "type functions with a upper-case letter" (god knows why I should do that).

Featurewise it's actually completely opposite.

I haven't deeply researched Java vs C# performance, but I have no reason to believe that C# is significantly slower/faster than Java.

Heavily use of lambdas and Linq might make it slow on an embedded device, that is true, but since similar features are not present in Java it's not possible to make a valid comparison.

I always admire those masochistic people you try t do something goog looking in XNA. So far I only know 2 (Having an XBOX an a lot of games) Terraria and Secrest of Grindea. I don't want to know the amount of work you need to put in to make it run like you want.

Magicka, Bastion and Bloodline Champions uses XNA too. Ah, those masochistic people.

[Klaim]

C# as always been faster than Java, even today. The reason is that unsafe code can be used if necessary.
Assuming the contrary is foolish and misleading.


To answer the question about why C# (or anything other than native code) the reason is that native code means you can do whatever you want with the hardware, meaning it s easy to build and distribute software without passing by the console manufacturer. Basically, they dont want the console to be hacked easily.

They fear the what happened to the Amiga.

[BlueSweatshirt]

Also with Oracle (owners of Java) currently suing Google because of Davik (Java virtual machine) I could see a strong case for staying away from Java until the Oracle stops being mental (probably not anytime soon). Also maybe we'd have to develop in Eclipse  - I think I'd rather be stabbed

Nah, that's something nobody cares a shit really. I mean Apple is suing everything which looks like an apple. Sometimes lawyer are lawyer imho...
And don't be a dig about IDE's Some like them and some others like others, so what?

Ok, I need to call this out. That is seriously ignorant. Yes people care. Getting sued is horrible business. Litigation is always messy, unfavorable, and cumbersome. Yes, it is absolutely enough to avoid a product area because of it. If Sony used Java for development and got sued it would bring a major hit to the development platform no matter how you look at it. Guess what would happen if Sony had to pay a Java licencing fee? This in turn screws over the developers, which is seriously bad if you're trying to bring in developers to your platform. "<x> language is better than <y>" arguments aside, this is serious stuff that brings with it serious implications. To say "nobody cares a shit" is absolutely, unquestionably ignorant.

[R.D.]

Sorry, I was just upset with people using any argument to stay away from Java :/ I at least try every language to get my own Opinion (When I was younger, I loved C++ but well...).
You are correct and I'm sorry ( absolutely, unquestionably ignorant is really hard tho...).

Magicka, Bastion and Bloodline Champions uses XNA too. Ah, those masochistic people.

Woa, even more... (2 of them I don't even know probalty Western RPG's :D). My main argument is the Spritebatch which is extremly unflexible coming from OpenGL. You know like you can't transform the matrix you use after a spriteBatch.begin() call. I don't know why they did that, but both OpenGL AND Direct X are able to transform while batching. My main problem was exaclty that. In OpenGL I got it working with plain logic in C# I had to switch between spriteBatch.begin()/end() which is not what batching is for :/

[BlueSweatshirt]

No hard feelings! And do keep in mind I wasn't calling you ignorant as a person, just the statement you made. 

[Manuel Magalhães]

It looks cool, but it's weird how the chose C# to program for it. Did they use a dartboard or something to chose the language?

Why is it weird?

I thought it was weird from a multi-platform perspective, not a performance one. The Playstation Suite also covers Sony's Android devices, hence my thought since Android apps are written in Java.
That said they might be doing it in C# for enchanted Vita performance/make the game run only on their Android devices (at worse).

[JOBA]

My main argument is the Spritebatch which is extremly unflexible coming from OpenGL. You know like you can't transform the matrix you use after a spriteBatch.begin() call. I don't know why they did that, but both OpenGL AND Direct X are able to transform while batching. My main problem was exaclty that. In OpenGL I got it working with plain logic in C# I had to switch between spriteBatch.begin()/end() which is not what batching is for :/

Well, your main argument is invalid in the sense that you can use C# with OpenGL.
And that's exactly what I'm doing (not that there's anything wrong with XNA).

Some things in XNA are somewhat simplified, and that is a good thing.
I suspect you're abusing the API somehow if you're having problems with rotating individual sprites or something like that(also read the docs)
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/microsoft.xna.framework.graphics.spritebatch.draw.aspx

[Keeweed]

Personally, I would call people who're working with IDE's like Eclipse masochists. I've spend a lot of time with Java, far more than I ever wanted too, and I'm glad I've left it behind.

So, I love C#, and I love XNA, and developing for Xbox, and I even like XBLIG (a bit)... but still I hope this will be much better! I hope Sony learns from Microsofts mistakes if it comes to XBLIG.

Well, time will tell.

[R.D.]

Well, your main argument is invalid in the sense that you can use C# with OpenGL.
And that's exactly what I'm doing (not that there's anything wrong with XNA).

Okay, why should I want to use C# then? With Java I have OpenGL (even better have LWJGL) and I was talking about XNA there :p Also I have an easy way to port my games.

Some things in XNA are somewhat simplified, and that is a good thing.
I suspect you're abusing the API somehow if you're having problems with rotating individual sprites or something like that(also read the docs)

Yes I don't said this is bad for starters but if you want to do somthing else it's hard got get it work imho And for I started with MSDN-Tutorials
Batching should just batch draw calls together by reducing the amounts of binds but it does not do that. Well it does but not if you have one large SpriteSheet with al graphics you need on it but you want different transformations on the Object (not just rotation, scaling, panning and all that fancy stuff too).

Anyway I think it's religon what's going on here :D

[Raptor85]

They fear the what happened to the Amiga.

It becoming incredibly popular, having more good games than pretty much all other systems combined...ever, and still a popular platform to develop for 20 years later?

....yeah...screw that...lets sink into obscurity!

[InfiniteStateMachine]

Well, your main argument is invalid in the sense that you can use C# with OpenGL.
And that's exactly what I'm doing (not that there's anything wrong with XNA).

Okay, why should I want to use C# then? With Java I have OpenGL (even better have LWJGL) and I was talking about XNA there :p Also I have an easy way to port my games.

C# you can make native calls so you can just wrap all your OpenGL C calls and use them in CSharp. Alternatively you can use one of the many C# openGL libraries that are essentially the same thing as LWJGL. Of course they also work with mono so you can port it to many platforms.

Here's a couple:
http://www.mono-project.com/Tao
http://www.opentk.com/

I use both Java and C# all the time for school and my job. I prefer C# mostly because it has things like function pointers. Java is still fine though, I'm ok with either language.

I haven't done any formal tests or anything but I've run into performance issues with Java more often than with C#.



It sounds like what you really don't like is XNA, not C#.

[R.D.]

Not sure what you mean but Java can do native calls too...
But you are right, in the end it's all the same xD

XNA is bad imho yes, but I also can't work with C# the way I want. I also get huge problems with networking and Server/Client stuff (Kinda love Java EE or JS, I had an idea for a editor in web made with Java EE and some Vaadin... that would be awesome!).

As said "I think it's religon what's going on here" that was pointed to me too

Oh and btw it's funny, I ran into a a lot of problem with C# rather then with Java :D But I do a lot of funny tricks to enhance code (because I like tricks :D)

[InfiniteStateMachine]

Not sure what you mean but Java can do native calls too...

Oh and btw it's funny, I ran into a a lot of problem with C# rather then with Java :D But I do a lot of funny tricks to enhance code (because I like tricks :D)

Yeah I realize that Java can do native calls too. I just pointed that out with C# because it seemed that you thought you can't use openGL with c#.

As for performance. There's so much debate about that. I think it's really only safe to say that neither language is profoundly more performant than the other.

Definitely religion :D

[Ouren]

There's a ton of really cool development videos in this threads:
http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/Community-Lounge/Videos-of-works-with-the-PlayStation-Suite-SDK/td-p/15918339



There's displacement maps, and what appears to be tessellation even.
A remote desktop client for windows, and various robot controllers.

I don't currently see any limitations in the SDK. I'm kind of shocked.

Also, Serapth here on TIG is running a really great tutorial series!
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=25771.0
http://www.gamefromscratch.com/page/PlayStation-Suite-SDK-Development-content.aspx

[InfiniteStateMachine]

Oh man... I think I'm gonna be buying a Vita with no games lol

[Ouren]

Yea, I have one, but only Motorstorm RC or whatever when it was free.
I got it for development. It's really sort of working out great.
I even have some people at companies who are interested.

Submitting my design doc to them next week. 

[InfiniteStateMachine]

very nice :D

how are you liking the SDK?


Also if I do get one, do I need anything besides the system to use the SDK? There's no funky extra cable I have to buy or anything is there?

[Ouren]

Well we're still very much in pre-production and our programmer is sort of a "freshman" if you know what I mean, so we dont have anything to test juuuuuust yet. But by looking at the demos, especially the 3D ones, i'm very impressed.

No special cables needed!