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AshfordPride
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« Reply #1060 on: November 20, 2012, 07:06:40 AM »

Aaaaaand Nito was a fucking stupid boss fight.

Fuck man, I need some challenge here.  Maybe I overleveled myself, but it seems like most bosses can just be frotted against until they die.
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« Reply #1061 on: November 20, 2012, 08:10:08 AM »

Maybe I overleveled myself, but it seems like most bosses can just be frotted against until they die.
Have you visited Lost Izalith yet? Wink

But I kind of agree, yeah. With my poise-based melee character, I could walk into most of the bosses and just press R1 until they died. There were some very fun moments though, like the ones where you have to hit a certain part of their body to get an item.
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« Reply #1062 on: November 20, 2012, 11:51:32 AM »

If From makes another Souls game, I hope they increase the difficulty of bosses. For me only Orn & Smough, Artorias, and Manus gave problems. And well, Bed of Chaos  Angry Though first time around I had much harder times though. Also, it seems to depend on the build you play a bit. With sorcerer most bosses were easy, except Seath and 4Kings. Those I had defeated with little problems earlier but with my sorcery build I struggled with them more.
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« Reply #1063 on: November 20, 2012, 01:53:06 PM »

if you have a large amount of vit and heavy armor, yeah, none of the bosses are all that hard as you can just sit there and button mash, if you were any higher than sl 40 or 50 though then yeah, you're overlevel for nito.  Personally i can't stand playing poise tank characters, it's just so boring, plus they're chumps and easy to kill in pvp and I like to pvp a lot. (at least at SL 100 and below aside from the occasional stunlock a 0 poise fast dex character will tear up people in heavy armor w/ stacked poise 10/10, i'd have to assume you're mostly playing offline because a low level character gouging vit in heavy armor you're an easy kill for a darkwraith, it wouldn't even be a challenge for most people to take you down, and if you're playing dark souls offline you're missing a core part of the game...fending off invasions making your way to the boss)  My first run i leveled vit quite a bit but now i've kinda "realized" how pointless vit is once you're good at the game, now most of my builds i cap at 10-15 vit max, sometimes 20 or so on my SL 120+ characters when i'm more or less capped on damage and endurance. there's just no reason to go much higher unless you're building a tank build.

If you don't enjoy playing like that (not having to evade, being heavy and slow but standing in the face of everything) stop spending your levels to build your character into a tank type character, try playing as a light armor build or a sorcerer build, or a pyromancer, or any of the thousands of variations dark souls allows for. Heavy armor tanks are pretty freaking boring to play as in any rpg imho.
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« Reply #1064 on: November 20, 2012, 03:20:58 PM »

So far I usually go with Elite set with below 50% equip load. Doesn't protect enough to just sit down and chip bosses though, since I usually raise VIT only after I have reached my other desired stats. Don't realy play/like PvP though. What I meant was how more of the game's bosses should be like Orn & Smough and perhaps Artorias/Manus who really pressure you almost constantly. Though many bosses get much more dangerous when taken down with pure melee. Pyromancy & sorcery ease things a lot.
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« Reply #1065 on: November 20, 2012, 11:00:48 PM »

I just got this game and have been having a blast playing and failing it.  I'm playing a melee character with a lot of dodging, which has made the combat really fun.  I'll probably post back here once I have a better understanding of what I'm doing.

Also fuck those firebomb guys.
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« Reply #1066 on: November 21, 2012, 05:44:28 PM »

So far I usually go with Elite set with below 50% equip load. Doesn't protect enough to just sit down and chip bosses though, since I usually raise VIT only after I have reached my other desired stats. Don't realy play/like PvP though. What I meant was how more of the game's bosses should be like Orn & Smough and perhaps Artorias/Manus who really pressure you almost constantly. Though many bosses get much more dangerous when taken down with pure melee. Pyromancy & sorcery ease things a lot.

More of the bosses should have unfair numbers and complement each others attacks?  That just sounds annoying.  Concerned

Mostly I wonder why the entire game isn't like Oociale township and the painted world; in that they're tightly designed, have clever shortcuts + bonfire placement, and actual nooks and cranies to explore.


>Try to kill Kalameet with sorcery
>Easy
>Try to sever his tail
>Take the game back to the fucking store


I don't even know why I'm trying I don't use dragon weapons  Cry
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 09:01:37 PM by Ben_Hurr » Logged
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« Reply #1067 on: November 22, 2012, 01:30:08 AM »

Quote
More of the bosses should have unfair numbers and complement each others attacks?  That just sounds annoying.
Orn & Smough is funnest boss battle  I know Cool And more bosses should exert more pressure on the player, O&S is just one way to go.
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« Reply #1068 on: November 22, 2012, 03:31:53 AM »

Mostly I wonder why the entire game isn't like Oociale township and the painted world; in that they're tightly designed, have clever shortcuts + bonfire placement, and actual nooks and cranies to explore.

I thought the entire game was pretty cramped as it is. Usually, third-person games make larger areas because of the potential problems with camera control and movement. Not that it wasn't a good decision, which it was, but having the whole game be in a series of small rooms and staircases wouldn't be that great.

Quote
More of the bosses should have unfair numbers and complement each others attacks?  That just sounds annoying.
Orn & Smough is funnest boss battle  I know Cool And more bosses should exert more pressure on the player, O&S is just one way to go.

You're just too good at the game, everyone struggles with the bosses the first time through. Making all the bosses tag-team you would be crazy overkill.
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« Reply #1069 on: November 22, 2012, 04:04:34 AM »

Quote from: SundownKid
You're just too good at the game, everyone struggles with the bosses the first time through. Making all the bosses tag-team you would be crazy overkill.

Really? I only died on Gargoyles and twice on Capra Demon. All the other bosses went down on the first try and I don't think I'm good at this game. Invaders still kill me all the time.

I think that bosses are designed around the idea that players can reach them at very different Soul Levels, so they should be always beatable. It makes it easy to be over-leveled. For example -- I think I went to the Catacombs a bit too early, but I still slaughtered Pinwheel before he even multiplied. No strategy. Just ran up to him and cleaved him with a Claymore held in two hands. I thought he's a mini-boss at first.
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« Reply #1070 on: November 22, 2012, 04:07:46 AM »

@SundownKid
Perhaps. However, even the first time bosses felt mostly easier than normal progress in the environment. Also, O&S is just example of boss which has more pressure on you than others, not meaning that every battle should be 1v2 etc. Another one which drives player to corner is Taurus because of a small field, while Nito and Gaping dragon for example are mostly a joke.

It is hard to describe though, some bosses just feel much more intense regardless of how experienced I was when I played them.

@Teegee
Good point about SL, it is rather easy to overlevel yourself. Though personally I don't like it when boss becomes hard only because I have to hit him 200 times to beat it instead of 20.
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« Reply #1071 on: November 22, 2012, 04:28:24 AM »

I have terrible reflexes so I had problems with almost all the bosses lol.

Also, idea for potential next Souls gam: Get rid of fog gates and integrate bosses into the rest of the level.
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« Reply #1072 on: November 22, 2012, 04:45:26 AM »

Quote from: Tumetsu
@Teegee
Good point about SL, it is rather easy to overlevel yourself. Though personally I don't like it when boss becomes hard only because I have to hit him 200 times to beat it instead of 20.

This goes a bit deeper than 200 hits vs 20. The main factor is your damage vs boss damage. If you can just hack away at the boss and kill it before it kills you, it doesn't matter if it took 10 or 1000 hits -- you still always win.

So the trick is not in increasing their health, but in mixing stuff up so that you can't just trade hits so easily. It's what you called "pressure" in your earlier posts. Taurus Demon makes it hard by limiting dodging space and requiring you to use that tower, Gargoyles and O&S battles are two against one, Capra has its dogs. Even if a more powerful character can kill them faster and is allowed to make more mistakes, you still need to learn their patterns to find an opportunity to hit them in the first place.

In Pinwheel's case, I don't even know what his moveset is. Pretty much the same thing with the Gaping Dragon and Queelag, though they weren't nearly as bad. Their movesets and arena design allowed me to trade hits easily with some minimal dodging. That's where over-leveling came into play. I could kill them before they'd kill me, despite making some mistakes and not knowing their attack patterns. If they had more life, I would simply use an Estus or two.


Bosses were easier than their preceding areas in Demon's Souls as well. They fixed many of DS's problems in DkS, but not this, which makes me think it's intentional. I guess it's because games are generally designed around the player's eventual success. Even hard ones. The boss is your reward after beating that hellhole of a level. This is where you show the game who's its daddy. If they would require several attempts, it could tip the scale of frustration a bit too much. It's not Monster Hunter where you can try the same battle right away, you have to go through the level again first.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 05:31:10 AM by TeeGee » Logged

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« Reply #1073 on: November 22, 2012, 05:19:29 AM »

Yeah, thats pretty much what I meant. Increasing boss' health or defense isn't that fun difficulty compared to difficulty which comes from boss' moves, attack patterns, environment etc.

Interesting point about the bosses being as rewards. Hadn't really thought it that way but it makes sense.
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« Reply #1074 on: November 22, 2012, 06:38:31 AM »

Remember too, dark souls is MEANT to be played online, so if you're tuning your character in a way entirely for bosses and skipping the pvp aspect, that's part of why you're having an easier time, you're essentially cutting out a large part of the game and specializing in the other, these poise tank characters that make a lot of the bosses easier you wouldn't even make it too the boss if playing normally in online mode. (It's like making a pure pvm character in a oldschool MMO like ultima....you ain't going to survive long like that).

Another thing is that the first game loop is essentially "very easy" mode, and while your poise/vit tanking by hitting 40 vit early might help in the first loop, stats dont relly scale much after 40 even though it becomes  more and more costly to upgrade so as you're playing the harder loops no amount of vit tanking will save you from the bosses, you can be fully upgraded giants gear and 99 vit and you're still going to get torn up trying to just stand and tank them, so all you're really doing by leveling those stats early during the first loop is putting off the challenge of the bosses until later, and the less you learn to dodge bosses in early loops you're going to have a massively harder time in later loops.

About bosses too, at first impression I felt manus was a joke, he was just way too easy to kill, as a light armor character his tells were so long it was super easy to dodge every one of his attacks plus his dark magic is so slow you didnt even need the pendant, you can just roll out of that.....well ng+ and beyond he gets quite a bit FASTER as well as stronger each loop, by ng2+ he's just going apeshit there...and it makes the battle ridiculously awesome, artorius is the same.
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« Reply #1075 on: November 22, 2012, 07:44:17 AM »

I'm using a PvP build and I still kill bosses with ease. Same thing happened in Demon's Souls, maybe even to a greater degree. In general, PvP characters are highly optimized, so even if they don't have as many options available for them and rarely use magic missiles, they are still very powerful.
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« Reply #1076 on: November 22, 2012, 08:16:15 AM »

Remember too, dark souls is MEANT to be played online, so if you're tuning your character in a way entirely for bosses and skipping the pvp aspect, that's part of why you're having an easier time, you're essentially cutting out a large part of the game and specializing in the other, these poise tank characters that make a lot of the bosses easier you wouldn't even make it too the boss if playing normally in online mode. (It's like making a pure pvm character in a oldschool MMO like ultima....you ain't going to survive long like that).

Another thing is that the first game loop is essentially "very easy" mode, and while your poise/vit tanking by hitting 40 vit early might help in the first loop, stats dont relly scale much after 40 even though it becomes  more and more costly to upgrade so as you're playing the harder loops no amount of vit tanking will save you from the bosses, you can be fully upgraded giants gear and 99 vit and you're still going to get torn up trying to just stand and tank them, so all you're really doing by leveling those stats early during the first loop is putting off the challenge of the bosses until later, and the less you learn to dodge bosses in early loops you're going to have a massively harder time in later loops.

About bosses too, at first impression I felt manus was a joke, he was just way too easy to kill, as a light armor character his tells were so long it was super easy to dodge every one of his attacks plus his dark magic is so slow you didnt even need the pendant, you can just roll out of that.....well ng+ and beyond he gets quite a bit FASTER as well as stronger each loop, by ng2+ he's just going apeshit there...and it makes the battle ridiculously awesome, artorius is the same.

I've played online my entire playthrough so far, and only encountered like, 3 darkwraiths?
Two of which because I was intentionally hanging around the painted world in human form for no good reason.

Seriously dude, fighting monsters and throat-punching bosses is the meat of the game.  It's why Darkwraiths have an edge in the first place; who is going to be prepared for PvP while doing an area normally when invasions are so uncommon?

Of course on that note I don't know why you'd be in an area in human-form unless you forgot you were human (face-obscuring helmets?) or were looking for a fight.


As for tank building, you do realize the game doesn't force you to play one way or the other right?  If FROM wanted a game where being really good at ninja-flipping out of the way of everything is the only way to play, Dark Souls would be very different from how it is now.

Also NG+ is when the game takes the gloves off and gets really unfair; like Nightmare mode in the old Doom games.  It's not the 'standard' difficulty.


edit:
Running between Kalameet's hind legs basically nullifies most of his attacks, and makes his tail wide open to attack, especially with sorcery.
In fact I just killed him by shooting him in his dragon balls, thank god thats over with.

Also I only get a Titanite Slab and a cursed ring for my trouble? Pbbbt.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:01:40 AM by Ben_Hurr » Logged
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« Reply #1077 on: November 22, 2012, 08:38:20 AM »

i thought ng+ was actually piss easy up until anor londo. like to the point where i was wondering if enemy stats were scaled at all. demon's souls is a whole different story in that regard.

also yeah pvp IS optional

btw, i think different enemy placement for ng+ would have been great but oh well

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« Reply #1078 on: November 22, 2012, 08:42:54 AM »

3 darkwraiths? what platform are you on again, I had more invasions than that just going to the taurus demon my first playthrough. I'm on ps3 and you're regularly invaded about every few minutes, as soon as the invasion timer is up, there's basicly always a darkwraith (or darkmoon...heh) hunting you.  I remember my first playthrough you were basicly forced to master pvp by anor londo or you'd either be playing offline or not getting any farther.  

As for choosing human form..i mean, co-op and pvp are core to the game, choosing to stay in hollow form is like playing doom and choosing "I'm too young to die", it's optional difficulty, the only real difficulty choice the game has, can't really complain about a game being too easy when intentially playing on easy mode. And no, the darkwraiths do NOT have the upperhand, they invade up from their level and cannot use flasks, the host is both higher level and can heal without the huge delay of using a humanity, and though you'll generally have lower end gear it doesn't really matter as much as the benefits of being host far outweigh that. Plus the host can summon in help at will, where as an invading wraith not only do you have to wait a few minutes for the next invasion window, the other invading wraith is NOT friendly to you, and can kill you as well.

My point isn't that tank building doesn't make the game easy in the first loop (the easy loop) it's that low level tanks are easy kills in pvp, slow guy in heavy armor you're goign to get bled, set on fire, or hit with a heavy hitter spell like crystal soul spear so your armor won't help you at all... so the reason they make the bosses so easy on the low level first loop is because they've essentially ignored half the game with the intent on making the bosses easier.  NG+ is more comparable to the loops in diablo 2 than doom anyways, same thing, first loop is basic training and getting your feet wet, game really doesn't pick off until the third one. (and much like in diablo 2 that's one of my only complaints about dark souls, it would be nice if there was some way to start at ng2+ difficulty on a new character)
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« Reply #1079 on: November 22, 2012, 08:44:59 AM »

i thought ng+ was actually piss easy up until anor londo. like to the point where i was wondering if enemy stats were scaled at all. demon's souls is a whole different story in that regard.

also yeah pvp IS optional

btw, i think different enemy placement for ng+ would have been great but oh well


hang around ng+ and especially ng2+ more so you get gravelorded, never happens first loop but it's pretty common in ng+ and beyond, some areas are downright nasty with the extra baddies, paritcularly chasm of the abyss.




video of the area when gravelorded, trust me, these bp's are NASTY.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 08:53:45 AM by Raptor85 » Logged

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