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[Dragonmaw]

I had no problem with the stat scaling in DkS. It all seemed pretty self-explanatory to me. Weapons which rely more on strength than finesse had strength as the primary stat (Claymore, Zweihander, etc) and weapons which rely more on speed and finesse (Winged Spear, Uchigatana) had dexsterity as the primary stat.

All in all the stat scaling system actually made a lot of sense.

[TeeGee]

Actually, Claymore depends as much on Dex as Str. Zweihander a bit less on Dex, but still uses it heavily. Shows how intuitive it is.

I don't think it's a big problem of the game, though. It doesn't affect much. But from a pure game design perspective, stats suck. They scale differently and are heavily imbalanced. Res is completely useless. 18 Att is considered high, when for all other stats it'd be 40. Or 50, if it comes to MagAdjust. MagAdjust that's not explained at all. And then there's stuff like Dex increasing casting speed without any mention of that in the game. You essentially need a guide to get it.

The main issue is that most stats don't give anything interesting on their own, leading to all builds being the generic: enough Str/Dex to carry your weapon, 40 in weapon stat, 40 in End (or a bit lower), rest in Vit and magic of choice. A strong character is in no way different from an agile character, or a smart character with an Int scaling weapon. What defines your playstyle is just the weapon choice.

Now, if all stats worked like Endurance (at least up until 40) or Faith, giving you some valuable gains on each point, builds could get more diverse. Say, each point of Str would increase equip weight, while Dex would influence rolling/attack speed. It would make for an interesting choice and one that even someone new to the game could understand.

[gggfhfdh]

no YOU'RE wrong about the statistics in this video game about beating up monsters and dragons

[vids]

Am I wrong in believing that balance isn't always the right way to go? You're right about the stat point allocation, but perhaps sometimes that becomes a game in itself. Does it have to be concise, it's rewarding to discover things you know the game never intended.

Diablo III unlike it's predecessor focused all it's strength on delivering a balanced experience. Sure the teleporting fire sorceress in Diablo II was imbalanced and a dominant strategy in online multiplayer, but that freedom is now lost, the game doesn't trust me anymore and I don't like that.

[TeeGee]

no YOU'RE wrong about the statistics in this video game about beating up monsters and dragons

Sorry. I thought we're on a discussion forum on video games. My bad. So what did you have for lunch?

Am I wrong in believing that balance isn't always the right way to go? You're right about the stat point allocation, but perhaps sometimes that becomes a game in itself. Does it have to be concise, it's rewarding to discover things you know the game never intended.

Yeah, this is true. And Diablo2/3 is a perfect example indeed. D2 had a similar problem as DkS -- enough Str/Dex to carry the weapon, rest in Vit, never get any Energy. D3 "fixed" it be removing the choice entirely, which is kinda throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I think some tweaks wouldn't hurt, though. Like, I thought a bit about Res. It sucks because it adds a small direct bonus to defense, less than a single armor piece. Now imagine if armors scaled with it like weapons/catalysts do with their stats. It would be consistent with the rest of the design and suddenly Res becomes an interesting choice.

[Blademasterbobo]

the main issue diablo had there was that the underlying game is not remotely deep or fun, so removing the only thing that involved any thought revealed the shitty game lurking underneath. if dark souls did the same thing, it'd still be infinitely better than diablo 3, because the underlying game / mechanics are actually fun.

not that i think they should do that, although who knows, it could be better? i'm going to wait and see what they do before i bother worrying about it either way.

[Raptor85]

Like, I thought a bit about Res. It sucks because it adds a small direct bonus to defense, less than a single armor piece. Now imagine if armors scaled with it like weapons/catalysts do with their stats. It would be consistent with the rest of the design and suddenly Res becomes an interesting choice.

Not really true, res doesn't just raise defense, it just gets the static defense bonus like leveling any stat does, what res actually does is raise your poison resistances and such, and add a static damage reduction on top of your armor level. (about 1 point reduction per point in res, at least until around 50)  It doesnt show up in your armor stat though, because it's not armor, resistance is completely seperate.  The reason it's considered useless though is it only really works vs bosses and monsters, it has no effect vs phantoms.(probably for the better...imaging if the vit stackers could stack 99 res also....).  If you're pure pvm though and focusing more on def than damage res actually IS pretty useful.

Honestly though, I really do like dark souls stat system, it works out well in multiplayer in that players of the same SL have a near inifnite amount of variety yet all have at least roughly the same potential to win a fight, there's no "one build to rule them all" like pretty much every other rpg has.

[TeeGee]

So is it another obscure thing that's never mentioned anywhere or I just missed it?

I would argue that there's one build to rule them all. The one I mentioned before. It doesn't really matter if you pump Dex or Str. It's still the same build. I think the great weapon design is what makes players of the same SL so different. There are really many interesting options available, and playing a rapier wielder is much different that using a spear or a great axe. It's a bit like Monster Hunter in that regard. That game had absolutely no stats or levels and yet a player with a hammer was completely different from one using dual blades or lance.

[Nillo]

It doesn't really matter if you pump Dex or Str. It's still the same build. (...) playing a rapier wielder is much different that using a spear or a great axe.

Err what? You're saying that weapon fighting styles are very different, and pumping Str gives you different weapons compared to pumping Dex. That means they are not the same build

[TeeGee]

Yeah, okay. From that point of view, yes. I meant that the stats don't give you anything in themselves. It's still all about the weapons. If the stats didn't exists at all, the weapon game would be just as diverse and fun as it is.

[vids]

I'm quite sure I'd enjoy the game as much even if it was levelless. The mysterious and abstract ambiance, labyrinthian level design, challenging combat and an array of interesting and diverse weapons is enough to keep me glued to it for a very very long time.

[Ben_Hurr]

p.s. idk where this that the game doesn't explain stats came from. just press select on your status screen or any item description screen and presto

It tells you what they do in general, but not the really important aspects of how they work.
Like how much damage does 1 point of str/dex/fth/int add to your weapon if applicable?  How much does 1 point of fth/int improve your magic adjustment?  What spells DO scale with magic adjustment in the first place, and in what way?

And good luck figuring out for yourself how much DEF you need to reduce x amount of damage, and thus how much that piece of armor is worth to you. 

  I hate playing games that way, personally.

I like how you just wear whatever looks cool/weighs less/has more DEF in Dark Souls. I didn't need to know if str was making my sword do 2 extra damage, I was just swinging my sword around and killing shit.

Minmaxing is more important for PvP I suppose, and I never got around to that

It's less about mix-maxing and more about being able to make an informed decision about using just about anything in a stat-based game.

Like deciding if going to extreme effort to acquire a sword that has 100 more 'attack points' is worth it or not.  It's not fun at all to find out '100 attack points' translates into only 10 more damage or something only after you've wasted your time getting/making it.


For example in Dark Souls, you need to increase your def in increments of 100 to even really notice a difference.  And even that difference is only a teeny sliver. 

[flowerthief]

It's a bit like Monster Hunter in that regard. That game had absolutely no stats or levels and yet a player with a hammer was completely different from one using dual blades or lance.

Someone is talking about me! The die-hard hammer wielder who refuses to switch weapons even when the hammer isn't the best choice on a monster. With my ps3 out of state and Monster Hunter being the closest thing to Dark Souls that you can find on the Wii, I am sure playing that game a lot these days.

[nekokoneko]

I recently played about 70 hours of monsterhunter Tri over 5~ days, man... i fucking love that game.

[flowerthief]

^ Yeah, it's addicting as hell. And it has some things in common with Dark Souls, but could probably use some sort of auto-targeting. Especially when swimming you get disoriented easily, and the sea monsters are tough as it is.

[TeeGee]

Auto-targeting in Monster Hunter?! NEVER!

Haven't played my Monster Hunter Tri in ages. I had mixed feelings about it, though. Loved the fact that I can finally go online co-op with a friend, but it seemed very limited in content after playing the PSP games.

And yeah! Hammer is the way to go!

[Nathan Cash]

That said I've never even played either one 

then what the fuck is your point

I was interested to see what y'all thought about that. I mean, what makes this game so special if it does nothing but troll?

[ink.inc]

That said I've never even played either one 

then what the fuck is your point

I was interested to see what y'all thought about that. I mean, what makes this game so special if it does nothing but troll?

except it doesnt do nothing but troll

read the thread

[gimymblert]

Monster souls or dark hunter?

[AshfordPride]

Holy shit, I've never found this many people who use the hammer.  I thought I was alone.