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[Ben_Hurr]

Well now, how DID the wiki people figure out joining the Way of White reduced invasions?
Is it so dramatic of an effect that it goes from having to chop your way through a veritable jungle of invader bodies to nothing? 

[Dragonmaw]

Let us all keep in mind that Demon's Souls, also widely considered to be a Good Game, had a much less subtle story than Dark Souls and people loved it.

[Blademasterbobo]

Makes me sad if they're trying to make it more like elder scrolls, I havent even half-enjoyed an elder scrolls game since morrowind, and even then I only thought of it as "good, but not great".   And yes bobo, i LOVE blind exploration and discovering secrets myself, and you learn the covenent traits the same way the people who WROTE the wiki did...by TRYING them, not everything needs a line by line "do this to win" instruction booklet attached to it, they're all optional anyways.  If you want to call me "dum" for enjoying a game that offers a challenge not only to "beat" it but to also uncover it's secrets then so be it though, I could care less what you think of me because of the games I enjoy.  

If i did have any complaints about the covenant system though it's the lack of any ability to give multiple items at once, should prompt how many humanity/medals to give when you select it so when you want to give 10-20 it doesn't take forever repeating 3 button presses.

i think you're dum because you're an idiot who thinks that making some things a bit more clear will suddenly transform the game into bejewled

[SundownKid]

The details given sound perfectly reasonable to me. I'd love a more interesting story, as long as they don't make it like some kind of arcadey Devil May Cry clone in terms of action, any improvements would probably be welcome. As interesting as picking up the story tidbits was in Dark Souls, I don't think adding a better story could do any harm since there were so many things (and cool characters) that just went unexplained.

What I'm interested in is how this would be a direct sequel if the last game had 2 separate endings... is there one canon ending to the game?

[deathtotheweird]

they'll likely choose one. less likely but possible-they'll find a way to merge them. not like it matters, as I'm sure most people who played the game don't really know or care what happened at the end.

[s0]

As interesting as picking up the story tidbits was in Dark Souls, I don't think adding a better story could do any harm since there were so many things (and cool characters) that just went unexplained.

you mean a WORSE story

[TeeGee]

Is DkS story really that good? I like how it's told, but in itself it didn't really engage me much. All the time I questioned if I even have a motivation to do what the serpents tell me. Why not just get away and live a happy undead life? I really liked the mythic feel to it, a nice change from the usual fantasy fare, but it felt like it's there just as a background.

I definitely liked DS story more. The game had Souls in the name, and all of it revolved around it. Everyone craved souls, souls were used for everything, whole predicament was caused by using souls. Realization that you are simply becoming another soul-thirsty demon was also a cool thing, especially as it was reinforced by the gameplay. In DkS, I don't even know why my character gains souls after killing enemies, other than it being a gameplay mechanic. Essentially, experience points.

[Dragonmaw]

I like DkS' story a lot more because it's more nuanced and interesting than DS, and it also incorporates the "going hollow" theme which I really love.

[Tumetsu]

Why not just get away and live a happy undead life?

Because eventually you go hollow. Basically one could say that the motivation is to lift your curse and the "chosen warrior" is best hope for that.

I also think that souls is central to this game, since all power of the lords came from them. However, humanity seems like the deeper concept in this game like souls were in DS.

[s0]

I definitely liked DS story more. The game had Souls in the name, and all of it revolved around it. Everyone craved souls, souls were used for everything, whole predicament was caused by using souls. Realization that you are simply becoming another soul-thirsty demon was also a cool thing, especially as it was reinforced by the gameplay. In DkS, I don't even know why my character gains souls after killing enemies, other than it being a gameplay mechanic. Essentially, experience points.

in dark souls that's split between souls and humanity. you harvest the souls of other beings to strengthen your own soul (which i guess represents your innate powers or sth) and humanity is what you need to stay sane as an undead.

actually humanity is a form of souls too, the humanity sprites are, as i understand it, fragments of the dark soul which was first discovered by the furtive pygmy (whose descendent the player character is).

[TeeGee]

I dunno. To me souls were such a strong concept in DS, while here it's more in the backdrop and feels more like story's interpretation of game mechanics, rather than game mechanics' interpretation of the story (if that makes any sense). I'm also not sure if I would "get" souls in DkS if I haven't played DS before.

But I get your arguments. And I do understand how it being even more subtle and obscure can be appealing. It has its charm, I just personally liked DS more.

[Ben_Hurr]

Why not just get away and live a happy undead life?

Because eventually you go hollow. Basically one could say that the motivation is to lift your curse and the "chosen warrior" is best hope for that.

I also think that souls is central to this game, since all power of the lords came from them. However, humanity seems like the deeper concept in this game like souls were in DS.

As far as I can tell, nobody goes hollow without dying horribly multiple times... so I dunno.

Theoretically both of those undead merchants could sit there and wait until the castle they're in and the mountain it's on are ground to dust by the elements as long as nothing bothers them.

[TeeGee]

And you could always kill a few rats for humanity. Duh  .

[Tumetsu]

As far as I can tell, nobody goes hollow without dying horribly multiple times... so I dunno.

Rather nobody goes hollow if they are in human form I guess.

Though I think it might be possible that going hollow is more or less random but humanity protects one from it, which would explain why people pursue it more or less. After all npc you kill gives you humanity. Staying at safe places to avoid losing it seems to be the strategy of crestfallen warrior who don't dare to venture out of Firelink.

[SundownKid]

I think you might be confusing a nuanced story for a slapdash one. I've played through the game multiple times, and there is really no "plot" to be nuanced, just a bunch of flavor text that you would see in a story bible. The game consists of:

1) Ring these bells... for some reason that is never actually explained (but apparently you risked life and limb to wake up Frampt from his naptime)
2) Gwyn's soul has been broken into 4 pieces, collect 'em all! (typical RPG trope)

While the areas are atmospheric and cool, the plot only makes sense because of the framework given to it by speculation. Sure, it was a conscious move on the part of the developer, but it doesn't mean that the story was laid out well besides the few snippets of dialogue we hear. While the basis of the story was cool and all, there is really no motive for the character besides the dubious words of a random guy and the equally as dubious words of a giant snake. Realistically, with that kind of motivation he should have turned into the Crestfallen Warrior pretty quickly.

[Tumetsu]

I think that DkS's story is very good in similar way as some open ended (or rather fully open) short stories and novels can be. If you expect an epic linear tale you probably will be disappointed and call it bad, while in reality it is just different.

[SundownKid]

Dark Souls is still pretty linear, it's not an open world game. Sure, it has lots of backtracking like a Metroidvania, but the way forward is always a single path (though it does a good job of making it seem like you're 'sneaking 'round the back' rather than going the same way everyone else did). Once you've gotten through an area, there's not much reason to go back besides shops and grinding (and perhaps going to a different area).

[Tumetsu]

I was talking about how the story telling was structured, not game's linearity or openness. What I meant to say that there really is a storytelling method which works great by leaving blanks to correct places and using non-traditional sequence or storytelling methods. It has been used long time in literature and movies. It is basically different storytelling method than traditional one. Some people like it, some people don't, though I think many people don't like them because they have wrong expectations of it.

[Dragonmaw]

There is a difference between "going hollow" and "going undead", even if the terms are confusing.

Hollow, story-wise, seems to be the descent into madness. While this is most often caused by the repeated death and resurrection of the Darksign, it can also be caused by other things. The most notable examples are Knight Solaire going hollow after finding the Sunlight Maggot and Big Hat Logan going hollow after discovering crystal-based magic. In both cases, the characters are human form (well, Solaire is an assumption, Logan is definitely human though).

The nature of "going hollow" is a recurring theme that repeatedly shows itself in the fates of characters. Once they discover what they were looking for, they lose their minds and go hollow. If they don't find it, then they don't go hollow (Solaire being the most notable example). It could be seen as a commentary on the nature of desire, or just on how the game developers wanted to give every character a clear ending. Either way, I like it a lot.

1) Ring these bells... for some reason that is never actually explained (but apparently you risked life and limb to wake up Frampt from his naptime)

You ring the bells to tell the giant in Sen's Fortress to open the gate. This leads to Anor Londo, which is where Frampt tells you to go after you have already rung the bells.  And it is actually explained why you are looking for these bells: there is a legend in Lordran society about a Chosen Undead who will break the undead curse by ringing both bells. It just turns out to be a little longer than you thought.

2) Gwyn's soul has been broken into 4 pieces, collect 'em all! (typical RPG trope)

Two pieces, actually. Seath was given one piece, and the Four Kings were each given 1/4th of another. Bed of Chaos (aka Witch of Izalith) and Nito have Lord souls on par with Gwyn's. Remember, there are four lord souls: Gwyn, Nito, Witch, and Pygmy. Pay attention!

While the areas are atmospheric and cool, the plot only makes sense because of the framework given to it by speculation. Sure, it was a conscious move on the part of the developer, but it doesn't mean that the story was laid out well besides the few snippets of dialogue we hear. While the basis of the story was cool and all, there is really no motive for the character besides the dubious words of a random guy and the equally as dubious words of a giant snake. Realistically, with that kind of motivation he should have turned into the Crestfallen Warrior pretty quickly.

The dubious words of the man who rescued you from rotting in an undead prison for the rest of your years and a primordial serpent not seen in countless centuries.

I dunno about you but if some guy rescued me and said "hey there's this task you should do because I'm totally gonna die before I can do it, and you can't actually die even though it'll hurt a whole lot" I'd probably go and do whatever he asks me. I owe the man my life.

Alternatively, you can always just take the beginning of the game as you stumbling around and exploring your new environments and finding out that the legend of the bells is real and you are like *shrug* GUESS I SHOULD RING THEM THEN.

[s0]

i think if youre thinking of dark souls' story in terms of pure plot, you're missing the point. what it's really about is uncovering all those tidbits of backstory and trying to make sense of the game's very minimal and vague plot using that info. there's a number of different angles you can approach the plot from depending your interpretation of the backstory. it's a huge, complex puzzle with no clear-cut solution and yes, i think that's part of what makes it great.

"slapdash" implies they couldn't be bothered to write a "real" story but i think that's far from the truth. the game actually had MORE plot sequences during development (for instance artorias and quelaag talked, the guy who rescues you is called oscar of astora and originally had a much larger role) that were ultimately cut to keep things vague. there are way too many strategically placed red herrings and intriguing npc dialogs and item descriptions for a story that the devs didn't give a fuck about.

that's my take on it anyway.