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[Glyph]

The day we have procedural games with quality indistinguishable from that of handmade games is the day we'll have the same for music and art. It's not the same as CG lighting or synth music, it's like randomly generating pleasing music or enjoyable art.

Not to say that I don't think procedural generation is good. But it's certainly not going to be seen as better than hand-designed things any time soon, just different.

[vinheim3]

From an artistic perspective, that might be true in many cases. While you can create beauty through proc gen's individual setpieces and how you mold them with others, and how events can interact with them, you can tailor-make the inter-connectivity of individual setpieces to convey a specific aesthetic or story instead of having infinite stories/areas that eventually feel fake and samey (even if the core gameplay is great and suits it).

The area I like most in DaS is Anor Londo. Its one true path is linear which forces the player to experience the scale and beauty of its level design in a specific way and order like reading a good book describing one person's adventure through the area. Memorable areas include the chandelier parts in the cathedral (how you transition from outside and then back outside back into safety), the 2 bowmen (the little roof you run to tackle them, and the struggle of getting rid of either one), and the run to the boss, plus you can enjoy the contents of its optional rooms (titanite demon, blacksmith, havel's room, etc) without getting too sidetracked. You couldn't create something of this scale in proc gen without the dev's intended beauty being lost on the player, to a point where the length of it begins to annoy the player when they experience it multiple times.

From a level design perspective, that's where it's a bit more debatable, because the quality of a game's level design also depends on the game's core mechanics, and how each complement the other. When you look at the more popular proc gen games that can be played for hundreds of hours, it's not necessarily like that by nature of being proc gen. Some proc gen games I've quit in less than 10 or even 2 hours just because even if the core mechanics have a lot of potential, the algorithm for creating levels and connecting pieces isn't there, and you can't exploit the mechanics to explore the levels in a variety of ways. The level design isn't "there". Same can be said of some manually designed games.

Also like I've said before, you can't say one is better than the other in every situation because sometimes you have an intended playstyle for your game. Binding of Isaac, Spelunky, Disgaea (Item world bits), etc would not be enjoyed the way they are even if you could design superior manually-designed levels.

[gimymblert]

The day we have procedural games with quality indistinguishable from that of handmade games is the day we'll have the same for music and art. It's not the same as CG lighting or synth music, it's like randomly generating pleasing music or enjoyable art.

Not to say that I don't think procedural generation is good. But it's certainly not going to be seen as better than hand-designed things any time soon, just different.

About music and art, I have some bad news for you in case you where not up to date to evolution of things ... also to cover their skynet ass, they don't say progen they says "tools".

music






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnBUxG-wSVg

I also request a mod split to design thread.

Progen in game is relatively young and misunderstood, it's only recently it at gain widespread recognition, so the future master of progen aren't at that level yet.

Progen is simple, it's not about randomness, it's about a set of rules,you already concede a lot anytime you use tropes and coputer as these things is all about rules to make something. Language itself is a set of rules. The thing is intent and human experience need to be "coded" too and that's what game already do, even handmade level design is about laying out a system of rules and modular asset to convey such emotion, the interplay between the art and the rules make the mood. And art itself is riddle with measure, rules EVERYWHERE, anatomy (ideal body is 8 head tall), line of construction, rules of tiers, law of color composition, balance, golden number ...

And also most progen aren't entirely artificial, it build from something, and that something is the direction of the human that need to narrow the generation to his intent. The samey things is something that is not inherent to computer (look at clone, fad and trend) but it's something that hasn't been adressed seriously yet by any progen designer, even though we start to see premise like biomes as concept. Those are thing that are also taught to human, there is rules to break monotony in art (use contrast: after a small room, expend the view, use landmark to break the view, etc ...), I have yet to see one implemented in progen design.

[gimymblert]

http://www.psmag.com/books-and-culture/triumph-of-the-cyborg-composer-8507

[Rat Casket]

computer cant feel feelings, therefor, regardless of its musical ability, it will always be sterile and an imitation of human preformed music.

such as level design.

[gimymblert]

so we move from "can't reach or be as good" to "sterile imitation" That's philosophy, not impossibility, i'm okay with this 

I do know the limitation, but reality can't feel either and produce sweeping emotion from pure chaos, .... filtered through emotion and then executed into the rigid structure of arts and crafts, it stress the rules toward an expression of those emotions

But that's people putting too much philosphical weight to progen, there is still a human behind the code to code his own tastes, style and intent, progen is a tool that only create inside the human condition inputted by the artist, that's all, it's a very powerful tool in the right hand. Emotion will always be handmade module put in the system by human.

Also this is procedural composition, there is no procedural performance on top so the sound itself might be a bit "flat" in execution.

Like all arts it's a tools that produce happy accidents, and accident are then either integrated by the artist or the public ...

edit:
BTW the music I showed there is 3 kind, the first is emmy is pure sterile imitation, the second is pure rules based, the third is the follow up to emmy and is emily howell pure creativity without rules but learning through accident and propositions and the artist directing it like a students.

[Glyph]

I think "can't reach or be as good" and "sterile imitation" are in a sense intertwined; art can't be experienced in a vacuum and one could say that there's less 'telos' behind a procedurally-generated [insert thing here] which in turn detracts from its quality.

[DJFloppyFish]

i think procedural levels can suffer from content recycling. prefab levels are inherenetly more interesting because they are designed to include new things at a regular pace. souls game are so about a sense of discovery that i dont think procedural stuff does them justice.

it doesnt help that level design doesn't affect souls combat all that much. in something like nuclear throne, i can see how procedural level design helps because the environment can determine how things play out, but in bloodborne not so much.

still, i gotta play the chalice dungeons before i continue to spew nonsense. :X

im legit excited to dive in.

[s0]

process art is actually pretty old at this point, but process art does not usually try to imitate traditional beauty.

[gimymblert]

"introducing new things at a regular pace" is a RULES that isn't in any current procedural generation out there.

I think "can't reach or be as good" and "sterile imitation" are in a sense intertwined; art can't be experienced in a vacuum and one could say that there's less 'telos' behind a procedurally-generated [insert thing here] which in turn detracts from its quality.

I'm calling this philosophy, you only know there is no telos because you know it's machine created.

But the code itself is the telos, the telos given by the creator, any creation by the machine follow slavishly this telos, if anything the creator of a system generally have narrow telos toward progen and then is unable to give it enough "texture". Progen is the teknê sure but the telos is baked in the code.

But there is also the turing test effect, if it's made by a machine and you cannot tell the difference unless told, what does that imply? If anything it bring a value that is external to the object, the concept of "authenticity", and that's more a mental construct based on reflection rather than the reality of object and its inherent value. I think authenticity of art is the same "devaluing impact" in the human culture than the introduction of photography and cinema, also accused of soulless capture of reality vs painting real vector of human nature and "more authentic". History have shown that photography and cinema were anything but soulless and all of that was philosophical conjuncture based on the idea of anthropomorphism, ie that human is the most important things in the universe, anything that threaten that centrality of humanity (in the occidental sense) is meat with fear. Not all culture are mired in the centrality of humanity as they see human as part of a bigger system, the universe or "nature". The way I see it is that Progen will never replace human, not as much as a better artist make all other artist irrelevant, it will just be another options, another source.

And like @silbereisen mention, process art (progen) was use by people who wanted to explore new things, even though it is demonstrated they can imitate human some times, it's use to go further in what it mean to be human.

Ultimately the thing progen can't do vs human is to contest his own code, human too are driven by set of baked rules, ego, sex, survival, purpose, bonding, some of them can even be quantified and define, but we can always shake these assumptions and redefine our purpose, that's why progen is fearful to some he trigger and challenge their sense of self and purpose, the difference between progen and human is not authenticity ...

 it's metaphysics

... and that's not a problem for progen, it's a problem for hard AI, and human like robot intelligence which is another can of worm entirely.

[s0]

im legit excited to dive in.

doing them all in a row is so draining 

atm im just alternating between main game and chalices, that way its bearable

[DJFloppyFish]

well thats disheartening

the guide revealed a lot of crazy of chalice stuff to me, so its a bummer to hear getting to some of it may be a grind

[s0]

btw just in case anyone at all cares here's the official lyrics to "hail the nightmare" (the EVIL GREGORIAN CHANT THAT TOTALLY DOESNT RIP OFF THE OMEN in unseen village)

(male) “Maledictus” (chorus answer) “Somnum limax”

(male) “In fi ci mur” (chorus answer) “Maledictus bestia”

(male) “Maledictus” (chorus answer) “Matrem nos inducas”

(male) “In fi ci mur” (chorus answer) “Argentum aqua in tenebris” “Mater sanguine” “Redemptionis nostrae”

[s0]

[s0]

anyway, as far as the practical problem of chalice dungeons in bloodborne: making the procgen aspect good would require a fundamental rework and that's not going to happen, even with dlc. they could be easily improved if there were fewer chalices (3 per "region" would be enough) and more different rooms. also maybe if the removed most of the recycled bosses and DEFINITELY removed all "bosses" that are just normal enemies with beefed up stats.

also i hate to say this but i think they would actually benefit from elder scrolls esque level scaling.  

[SousaVilla]

anyway, as far as the practical problem of chalice dungeons in bloodborne: making the procgen aspect good would require a fundamental rework and that's not going to happen, even with dlc. they could be easily improved if there were fewer chalices (3 per "region" would be enough) and more different rooms. also maybe if the removed most of the recycled bosses and DEFINITELY removed all "bosses" that are just normal enemies with beefed up stats.

also i hate to say this but i think they would actually benefit from elder scrolls esque level scaling. 

One of my main problems: The chalice dungeons are basically combat challenges and places to farm blood gems; I like the combat in most souls games and in bloodborne even more, but thats not why I play them. Its a mixture of good level design, unique fantasy worlds, criptic storyline/npcs, monster/bosses designs, etc, that just creates immersion and gives you the urge to explore. Chalice Dungeons have none of it, their level design its simplistic and boring, they look like a normal dungeon in any other fantasy game and their appearence almost never change, you meet no npcs in the dungeons and very, very few story stuff, the enemies repeat themselves, etc. Instead of the organic feel of Yharnam or Cathedral Ward you have a disconnected series of challenge rooms wich leads to a boss that has little reason to be there other than to be an obstacle and that's it. It feels like a videogame stage, while the rest of the game feels like a world to jump in.

If I would change anything other than what Silbereisen said, I would get rid of the rigid structure of the dungeons, putting less lamps and more ways to tranverse them, like shortcut and ways to skip bosses, I would add npcs that can be only found in the dungeons, some of those lore notes scattered around and I would put the way to access them outside of the hub. New itens/weapons/armor sets that fit oganically, etc.

[gimymblert]

On a side note one reason progen tend to look samey is because of the handmade element they snap together, this isn't generated therefore will be repeated. In order to make chalice dungeon with npc and story elements, those would have to be generated at some level too so they don't repeat and you don't move the problem to elsewhere ...

[s0]

chalice dungeons actually have a good amount of lore to them and theyre not thaaat linear either. they still have shortcuts and multiple paths and etc. problem is that theyre atmospherically kinda weak ofc.

[DJFloppyFish]

sounds like it wouldve been perfectly serviceable for what it is if it was less grindy and more rewarding

[s0]

btw in the guide interview miyazaki implies that he isnt actually a big roguelike fan and that the chalices were someone else's idea, not his. he also says that he wants to pursue procgen further tho.

honestly it was kind of a mistake on from's part to jump straight into procgen with bloodborne (without any real experience). they should have made a roguelike for handhelds or sth first to test the waters.

that said there are actually many good aspects to the chalices that could be expanded on. for instance the sharing is a good (if not new) idea and so is paying materials to access dungeons actually. classic roguelike "throwaway" levels that regenerate a lot are antithetical to souls design and it was a smart idea to make generating levels "meaningful".