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[quantumpotato]

Silbereisen: you commented earlier I should play Demon Souls to learn more design.. after watching this, very interested:

[s0]

demon's souls and bloodborne are ultimately better than any game in the dark souls series

[Raptor85]

demon's souls and bloodborne are ultimately better than any game in the dark souls series

I just wish the matchmaking system in bloodbourne didn't suck so much :/

[FrankieSmileShow]

I agree with the video that Demon's Souls was a bit more comfortable with doing weird things, while the other games have been relatively more safe as they settle into certain kinds of designs through the series' evolution, focusing on the parts they felt worked best, but somewhat at the detriment of the games feeling more predictable in gameplay terms.

But I think he overstates how samey the boss battles have gotten. You have to describe those battles in very obtuse terms to make them sound similar (dodge attacks and then punish), a lot of the content's resemblances are only skin-deep. I think the general movement of boss battles and setpieces throughout the series has been to move away from battles that have specific "solutions" to them, so players deal with these situations based on their setup and their available options, instead of just figuring out that main strategy they're "meant" to be using.
Basically, if you play the game as a hammer, every boss looks like a nail. If you play the game slightly less focused on one specific strategy, the boss battles feel more different from one another, as you switch up your strategies depending on your strengths and weaknesses, and how those interact with that specific boss.

(also, they still have some puzzle-bosses. those have never gone away, theyre just a bit more sparse, as theyve developped a liking to some specific kinds of showdowns)

[J-Snake]

Basically, if you play the game as a hammer, every boss looks like a nail.

The problem is that the majority of bosses are nails. So there is no need to use another tool if you are well versed with a hammer.

[s0]

But I think he overstates how samey the boss battles have gotten. You have to describe those battles in very obtuse terms to make them sound similar (dodge attacks and then punish), a lot of the content's resemblances are only skin-deep. I think the general movement of boss battles and setpieces throughout the series has been to move away from battles that have specific "solutions" to them, so players deal with these situations based on their setup and their available options, instead of just figuring out that main strategy they're "meant" to be using.

i've completed all 5 games multiple times and i do think the bosses get samey, particularly once we get to dark souls 2 and 3. yes the bosses have different movesets but mostly it's what he describes in the video: learn the moveset, dodge, punish. i think the variety of possible strategies has actually decreased because most bosses only have tiny windows where they can be attacked safely now (esp in dks3 and bb). whether you're poking the boss with your sword or with your magic missiles is nearly irrelevant. it doesn't help that many bosses are rehashes or mashups of previous souls bosses, which makes them less memorable. ornstein & smough were really cool in dks1. the 15th duo or trio boss in dks2 and 3 isn't. i've been through so many of these types of fights that they're starting to blur together.

the main thing fromsoft did in the later games was make the bosses more "hardcore" without making them more interesting: faster, longer combos, instakill attacks, ability to punish at any range, multiple phases (each with their own HP bar), larger groups for group fights etc, which is getting increasingly tiresome. sister friede is not a boss fight i want to ever repeat for example.

the interesting thing about demons souls bosses is that they were often easier than the level that preceded them and were more of an interesting narrative experience than THE ULTIMATE CHALLENGE. later souls games have increasingly de-emphasized level design and overemphasized bosses. and it's not true that they were all puzzle bosses. the only actual puzzle boss is the dragon god. everyone else has multiple ways to beat them (i actually beat the storm king using spells once).

[Raptor85]

later souls games have increasingly de-emphasized level design and overemphasized bosses. and it's not true that they were all puzzle bosses. the only actual puzzle boss is the dragon god. everyone else has multiple ways to beat them (i actually beat the storm king using spells once).

part of the reason that i disliked dark souls 2 and, while i like dark souls 3 it's not even in the same league as dks1 and demon's souls/bloodbourne. dks1 still had the really long, challenging, MEMORABLE levels (seriously, think back to dks1, pretty much every area of the game has at least ONE really memorable area) and a huge number of the bosses had ways to make them easier hidden within the level.

another thing i didn't like about 2 and 3 (again, more of a sin in 2 but still bad in 3) is how they increased the "difficulty" by making the enemies aggro farther and having more enemies aggro on you at once, as well as giving many enemies and bosses instakill moves. "difficulty" i say because it's not really making it more difficult, but just making it more tedious by making you die more and remember where things are at.

Also, with the samey bosses, this was even worse in 2 since a lot of the bosses were literal copy-paste of earlier bosses, some with just a graphical reskin (hell even the giant rat was literally just sif with a few of gaping dragons moves added, and small rats added to the arena). And basically all the other bosses in 2 were just giant dudes in armor with weapons...they were pretty uncreative with bosses in 2.

[s0]

btw, the thing about bloodborne combat in that video is a bull shit. bloodborne technically has less options, but it has more meaningful options. spells and blocking were never that interesting as mechanics (in DeS and dks1 in particular, spells are more or less babby mode), neither was cheesing enemies with bows. ranged parry, otoh, is a meaningful and subtle mechanic. same goes for making backstabs (which were always "overpowered" in souls games) risky and adding a reason to be play aggressively via the regain mechanic. then he says that the trick weapons don't make a difference and attack animations are irrelevant which, given that the length, damage and range of attack animations is the heart of the combat, is blatantly not true. bloodborne streamlined the decision space of souls in a good way.

[omnilith]

I think Dark Souls 3 is the best Dark Souls because it and Bloodborne are both very good character action games. I support this direction for the series because Platinum is basically the only other company that makes good games in that genre. Farewell,

[JWK5]

I just realized the Bloody Crow of Cainhurst you fight at the end of Eileen the Crow's storyline (at the top of the Grand Cathedral steps) is wearing the exact same helmet (complete with purple "mane") as Yuria of Londor in Dark Souls 3, the Bloody Crow of Cainhurst also wields a katana that looks similar to Yuria's Darkdrift. The Hunter of Hunters, with their crow attire, actually dress in a manner very similar to Yuria the Witch in Demon's Souls.

Bloody Crow of Cainhurst

Yuria of Londor

Eileen the Crow

Yuria the Witch


Sorry, I quit playing Bloodborne for the longest time (mostly due to Dark Souls 3 and The Witcher 3) so I've just picked up again and finally beat Rom the Vacuous Spider (whom I was stuck on when I last left off) and I am way behind the times here, so this was one of this weird revelations for me (that everyone else probably already knows). Carry on.

I think Dark Souls 3 is the best Dark Souls because it and Bloodborne are both very good character action games. I support this direction for the series because Platinum is basically the only other company that makes good games in that genre. Farewell,

With better shield options and more magic-user options (especially a starting magic-user class) Bloodborne could easily be my favorite Souls game (next to Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 2).

My perfect Souls game would be Demon's Souls' emphasis on unique bosses and clever use of terrain, Dark Souls 1 inter-connectivity, Dark Souls 2's replay options and multi-player emphasis, Dark Souls 3's scale and grandeur,  and Bloodborne's atmosphere, weapon tweaking, and cohesiveness and maybe a better version of the chalice dungeons. Mix all that with good build options (and the right balance of starting classes) and you'd have my perfect Souls game.

[s0]

I just realized the Bloody Crow of Cainhurst you fight at the end of Eileen the Crow's storyline (at the top of the Grand Cathedral steps) is wearing the exact same helmet (complete with purple "mane") as Yuria of Londor in Dark Souls 3, the Bloody Crow of Cainhurst also wields a katana that looks similar to Yuria's Darkdrift. The Hunter of Hunters, with their crow attire, actually dress in a manner very similar to Yuria the Witch in Demon's Souls.

once you are done with bloodborne, read this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JL5acskAT_2t062HILImBkV8eXAwaqOj611mSjK-vZ8/

[quantumpotato]

I see what you mean about BB decision making and I agree. From what I can tell you have a few weapon types but you don't have to pick between 100 swords or w/e. (I've only watched ppl play it/haven't played).

On the thread of mechanic experimentation, I just finished LISA: The Painful . Made me feel things from its tight integration of story + mechanics + horrific mechanic of using party members as resources and requiring you to make sacrifices (inventory vs party member, your limbs vs party member, playing russian roulette w/ party members of your choice but you must play).