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[Belimoth]

gwyn sacrificed his soul to the flame to keep it burning. when you fight him youll notice that he looks hollow. so i guess what hollowing is is the flames burning away your soul.

Hollow enemies give you less souls than non-hollow enemies so that makes sense.

Also no one goes around chopping grass to collect souls so maybe the soul is the source of will, as opposed to a vague life force.

Anyone know where I can find a dump of the Japanese lore? I have a theory that the 'Flame God' part of 'Flame God Flann' just means that he was a member of Gwynn's sun-centric pantheon.

Totally digging the story discussion, even though I don't know what you guys are talking about yet. Really loving how Souls games handle their storylines and make them engaging and open for interpretation with pretty much the mood alone. Why can't we have more games like this?

Oh yeah, shit, my comments have spoilers you guys.

[SundownKid]

So who's the next boss? I thought the game is somewhat non-linear. I plan to go to Darkroot Garden now.

The boss of Darkroot Garden is actually pretty hard if you aren't a spellcaster (or (duh) don't summon), and entirely optional. Before you go, you should know that there is a hidden bonfire in the Garden which makes your life a lot easier. Also, ranged weapons. I think. I killed it the hard way.

[Bandages]

The boss of Darkroot Garden is actually pretty hard if you aren't a spellcaster (or (duh) don't summon), and entirely optional. Before you go, you should know that there is a hidden bonfire in the Garden which makes your life a lot easier. Also, ranged weapons. I think. I killed it the hard way.

I played a melee and got wrecked solo. With the summon it was cake, and also once I learned that the beam attack wasn't as delirious biznasty as I thought it was at first, I could dodge fairly well while Matilda (or w/e) burned it down

burned it all down 

[Blademasterbobo]

The boss of Darkroot Garden is actually pretty hard if you aren't a spellcaster (or (duh) don't summon), and entirely optional. Before you go, you should know that there is a hidden bonfire in the Garden which makes your life a lot easier. Also, ranged weapons. I think. I killed it the hard way.

I played a melee and got wrecked solo. With the summon it was cake, and also once I learned that the beam attack wasn't as delirious biznasty as I thought it was at first, I could dodge fairly well while Matilda (or w/e) burned it down

burned it all down 

i fought it solo and melee both times and it was a joke of a boss both times. idk what ur guys's problem is

[Belimoth]

We are not blademasters obviously.

[Dragonmaw]

Butterfly is piss easy.

Dodge for like 5 minutes while it shoots shit at you, then wail on it while it rests its head on the walkway.

[SundownKid]

Some of us don't have the 1337 $killz that will let us perfectly dodge every attack for 5 minutes, jeez! Some of his attacks are actually pretty hard to dodge, at least for someone who is fighting this guy as his second boss as I did.

This is just speculation but I'm also not convinced that Kaathe and Frampt are actually separate individuals. I think it's possible that they might just be roles that any of the serpents can fill at any given time. I haven't checked if they are actually separate voice actors, but if so, that would probably nix this idea. They are indeed the same voice actor.

I think the Primordial Serpents propagated the myth of the "Chosen Undead" in order to find someone who was strong enough to kill Gwyn and the other gods, so they could regain control.

But why would Frampt try to get you to link the flame if the serpents wanted to usurp the Gods, or get so pissed at you if you disobeyed?

It does make sense given what the ending says about how Kaathe AND Frampt are both under your control, almost as if they are titles rather than actual beings.

[Tumetsu]

That Serpent ring is a good point. Leads me thinking that serpents want to revenge the defeat of the dragons and destroy gods by using humans. That's why Kaathe thinks Frampt went mad by friending Gwyn.  I wonder does the dark lord hold any power to the serpents or is s/he just a puppet leader while serpents stay behind the scenes like so far.

Another thing which slightly confuses me is the two abysses, New Londo and Oolacile ones. Origin of Oolacile one was pretty clear, since it was done by Manus but how about the tamer version of New Londo? Was it created after 4Kings started to drain humanity and collected enough humanity to form the abyss?

[Belimoth]

The giant bird probably worked for Velka, yes? Maybe she has some alliance with the serpents.

EDIT: Maybe the giant bird IS Velka.

EDIT: Further speculation, maybe Kaathe and Frampt are names of two houses that the serpents belong too, since they line up in two rows at the end. Then it would be more like a surname.

I think it's pretty much established that the 'chosen undead' story is a fabrication since the bells don't actually do shit, yes? It would stand to reason that the serpents are responsible for this since after the first bell you can hear Frampt snoring in Firelink Shrine.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: I don't think Manus was the first human, but rather the first undead human. He could be the reason that Gwyn grew to fear human-kind, seeing what they could potentially become. If he feared them from the beginning the gods would have wiped them out before any sort of population growth.

[s0]

different interpretation: kaathe wants to overthrow the gods and establish the dark lord's reign. frampt is just an opportunist who serves whoever is in power.

i think your interpretation is cool too tho. it would mean that frampt tricked both you AND the gods. i mean he teamed up with gwyndolin to create the whole "chosen undead" hoax. then again gwyndolin, being the "dark sun" and all, might be on the darkwraiths' side too.

[Tumetsu]

There is also speculation that Velka was pygmy and mother of Priscilla etc. I wonder when Miyazaki comes out and says that he has trolled all of us and that actually Frampt is pygmy and humanity is transforming everyone in the end to serpents and dragons therefore returning the age of dragons or something as weird

Still it looks safe to assume that serpents are manipulating pretty much everyone in DkS universe, both humans and gods. I wonder where the undead curse comes though. Earlier it was said to be dark soul spread by pygmy to humans to eventually become the dark lord. Now I'm not so sure since Manus seems to have something like dark soul, and since we have killed all of the lord soul holders, it isn't too far fetched to assume we can get the pygmy too. Dark lord might be as much fabrication as chosen undead legend.

I think that perhaps the flame and bonfires are fueled by humanity, slowly eating away people's humanity turning them hollows while too much humanity turns wild and leads to insanity apparent in Oolacile. If flame and humanity are really the opposite, then darksign would be side effect caused by the flame and dangerous to humans, while wild humanity and Abyss is especially dangerous to gods.

[Belimoth]

The intro narrator is the only person I trust.

[Ben_Hurr]

Inb4 intro narrator is Velka.  

Regarding the Primordial Serpents

I think the Primordial Serpents are basically acting on behalf of the ancient dragons. If you read the description of the Covetous Gold Serpent Ring, it says "the serpent is an imperfect dragon."

It's also pretty clear to me that Kaathe and Frampt are allies despite what they say, and that there are a bunch more of them just waiting around behind the scenes (which we know from the Dark Lord ending).

This is just speculation but I'm also not convinced that Kaathe and Frampt are actually separate individuals. I think it's possible that they might just be roles that any of the serpents can fill at any given time. I haven't checked if they are actually separate voice actors, but if so, that would probably nix this idea. They are indeed the same voice actor.

...

I got the impression that at least Kaathe is in league with the ancient dragons, if only because he calls Seathe a dirty traitor. (traitor to who? traitor to dragons)

Your suggestion that they're the same serpent gives me the funny image of them being a snake with a head on either end, haha

[gggfhfdh]

Your suggestion that they're the same serpent gives me the funny image of them being a snake with a head on either end, haha

did them suddenly being upside down when bringing you to the lordvessel area not already do that for you

[s0]

Your suggestion that they're the same serpent gives me the funny image of them being a snake with a head on either end, haha

did them suddenly being upside down when bringing you to the lordvessel area not already do that for you

ok now i feel dum

[gggfhfdh]

honestly given how close they are its easy to assume the lordvessel area is right around the abyss somewhere

which means that they just kind of eat you on one end and let out on the other when bringing you there

[Ben_Hurr]

Now look what you guys have done



'Entrust thine flesh to me!' etc

[deathtotheweird]

did anyone mention that dark souls is on sale on steam right now? 26.79 usd until Nov 12.

probably the cheapest you'll see it for pc until the holidays.

[Tumetsu]

I actually bought it at that price as a retail (euro=dollar "conversion" though). Got artbook, poster etc. so Steam version didn't really attract me much.

[SundownKid]

Now look what you guys have done

http://i50.tinypic.com/zo7zgh.jpg

'Entrust thine flesh to me!' etc

Heh, I actually did suspect that he was two-headed. After all, you never actually see his other end, which means something is up.

Another thing which slightly confuses me is the two abysses, New Londo and Oolacile ones. Origin of Oolacile one was pretty clear, since it was done by Manus but how about the tamer version of New Londo? Was it created after 4Kings started to drain humanity and collected enough humanity to form the abyss?

IMO, the Abyss is like a pocket dimension, and a portal can be created anywhere that leads to it. The 4 Kings and the sorcerers of Oolacile both used the dark arts to open a portal. However, it is much larger on the inside than the outside, otherwise you could probably see it from Ash Lake.