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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesDark Souls and Bloodborne
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Author Topic: Dark Souls and Bloodborne  (Read 369476 times)
Klaim
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« Reply #1880 on: April 22, 2013, 04:04:36 am »

What a great game! I wish the ending was a bit longer, though.

Which one?  Well, hello there!
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« Reply #1881 on: April 22, 2013, 09:25:19 am »

jsnake thinks that god of war has better combat mechanics
Beat God of War 3 on hardest, then you can talk.

Quality of combat gameplay is not just the potential of a concept, it is also the composition of all elements into an actual challenge. If the created challenge is full of one-dimensional exploits it becomes dull.

Yo bro, address my questions otherwise its not even a discussion T_T
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Derek
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« Reply #1882 on: April 22, 2013, 12:11:33 pm »

I don't know about GoW 3, but I remember the combat in the first two GoW games being super dull. Lots of mashing and unfun QTE finishing moves.

What I love about Dark Souls is that the combat is more deliberate and the stakes are higher. It feels slower, but it's much more exciting to me than whipping away 50 harpies with ultra combos. Also, very little is scripted, so you can really use timing and environments creatively. You're talking about exploits like they're a bad thing... I think it's awesome to figure out an exploit that isn't some totally scripted thing. And even when you have your plan down, it's not like you just do it and it works out.

Watch some DS videos... even really experienced players are like "WTF?!" all the time because there's so much that can go right or wrong during battles based on small details like positioning, environment, character build, etc.

And that's just the combat - there are million other reasons why DS is more interesting than GoW gameplay-wise. In the end, GoW is just putting you in one gladiator battle after another with some barely interactive movies in-between. Which is fine, if that's what you're looking for. But it's not nearly as interesting as DS (in my humble opinion).
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« Reply #1883 on: April 22, 2013, 12:26:47 pm »

I will say that combat in the Gods of War series is a very different experience on the hardest difficulties.  Button mashing is no longer a viable strategy, and parrying and evasion become much more important. 

That being said, I'm not sure that it even makes sense to compare the combat systems.  They are both aiming for such different things, that it's almost without meaning to compare the two.

And as Derek says, ignoring combat, DS is just a much more interesting and rich game than GoW.
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« Reply #1884 on: April 22, 2013, 12:55:04 pm »

Quote
Watch some DS videos... even really experienced players are like "WTF?!" all the time because there's so much that can go right or wrong during battles based on small details like positioning, environment, character build, etc.
the main problem i had when i first played demon's souls was that i tried to approach it like a normal modern action game. took a few deaths to realize that wouldn't work lol.

also there are a million linear action games with sweeping melee attacks, combos and qte finishers like god of war but there are very few games that play anything like d* souls.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #1885 on: April 22, 2013, 01:04:07 pm »

Not all God of war games are equal. The new God of War Ascension is an embarrassment for example. Nice ideas for puzzles there but the gameplay setup doesn't work. It's a mess.

I don't claim combat in God of War 3 is great. But it is decent for a hack and slash game, considering that it is harder to design clean combat challenges in a hack and slash game. In order to beat it on hardest you will need to apply gameplay elements and recognize several patterns in various fight-challenges. If you count those actvitities and compare them to what you apply in Dark Souls combat, you don't do more in Dark Souls. In a slower paced game you would expect deeper and more varied interaction in physical combat. Stamina bar is a good concept, but your mobility- and weaponAttack-set is modified only into one dimension, it doesn't enable new ways of interaction. There is even no point in backstepping.

Don't understand me wrong, it is a fundamentally better step towards combat compared to a mess like Skyrim, but it doesn't make it great.
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« Reply #1886 on: April 22, 2013, 01:07:03 pm »

Quote
our mobility- and weaponAttack-set is modified only into one dimension, it doesn't enable new ways of interaction.

What? This totally is incorrect.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #1887 on: April 22, 2013, 01:26:06 pm »

Only in your terms of contemplation ( I am not talking about how running faster you can outmaneuver slow enemy acting and so on, it can be taken for granted, it is a basic result of a parameter change)
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« Reply #1888 on: April 22, 2013, 01:29:46 pm »

Well, J-Snake, only in your terms of contemplation, almost exclusively, is what you have said correct. At least, that's what I think.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #1889 on: April 22, 2013, 01:40:11 pm »

I can put it that way:
You can also claim COD has a lot of variety in gun-combat the way a nerd can use all the different linear weapons which just mainly differ in basic parameter changes. Then you can put it next to Unreal Tournament 99 and the variety of gun-combat is visible to even more people, not just the nerds.
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Klaim
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« Reply #1890 on: April 22, 2013, 01:45:48 pm »

Only in your terms of contemplation ( I am not talking about how running faster you can outmaneuver slow enemy acting and so on, it can be taken for granted, it is a basic result of a parameter change)

No I mean, people here have been pointing repeatidly that the D.Souls games have different animation sets depending on the composition of weapon, shield and armor which already is more dimentions than 2 but even if you don't consider that and only the actions themselves their impact in kind of damage, distance, effect area are incredibly wide and can evolve differently depending on how you evolve the weapons/shield.


Your "mobility" as you say depends totally on all these factors.

Saying "our mobility- and weaponAttack-set is modified only into one dimension, it doesn't enable new ways of interaction." point to the fact that you are totally ignoring the specific features of the combat macanism, or what?

I can put it that way:
You can also claim COD has a lot of variety in gun-combat the way a nerd can use all the different linear weapons which just mainly differ in basic parameter changes. Then you can put it next to Unreal Tournament 99 and the variety of gun-combat is visible to even more people, not just the nerds.


I know both (more Ut actually) and I don't follow/understand your reasoning/what you want to mean here.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #1891 on: April 22, 2013, 03:03:07 pm »

Watch some DS videos... even really experienced players are like "WTF?!" all the time because there's so much that can go right or wrong during battles based on small details like positioning, environment, character build, etc.
Considering that fights are meant to be clean puzzles makes it a contra-productive point. The actual technical and design challenge is to minimize the amount of noise, generating noise is easy.
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« Reply #1892 on: April 22, 2013, 03:23:56 pm »

I don't think fights are meant to be clean puzzles at all, either in Dark Souls or in video games or in general. It's best when it's raw and exciting. Otherwise chess would be the best "fighting game" around.

As for the "noise", I think it's noise only if you don't understand or appreciate the fact that these details affect the combat and make it more interesting than if you had one character and fought every enemy in a completely flat arena.
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Jimym GIMBERT
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« Reply #1893 on: April 22, 2013, 03:26:48 pm »

Ninja gaiden black beat everyone
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« Reply #1894 on: April 22, 2013, 03:36:41 pm »

dark souls should just be remade as a sokoban clone imo
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Jimym GIMBERT
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« Reply #1895 on: April 22, 2013, 03:39:59 pm »

Wait isn't that rogue's soul? When will the box pushing be implemented?
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Silbereisen
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« Reply #1896 on: April 22, 2013, 03:46:09 pm »

[insert sanic the hodgehug joke here]
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Jimym GIMBERT
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« Reply #1897 on: April 22, 2013, 03:48:14 pm »

[insert sanic the hodgehug joke here]

Sanity the original character PLEASE!
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J-Snake
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« Reply #1898 on: April 22, 2013, 04:08:23 pm »

For some chess is the best and most exiting fighting game. But puzzles don't have to be limited to freezed-in-time board gaming. The setup of Darksouls looks planned out: the enemy placement, the slow-attacks, the geometry setup makes it designed like a puzzle you have to solve.

I am creating a dynamic action-puzzler with potentially innumerable ways of approaching a problem. By noise I am referring to repercussions which provoke unintended exploits or inaccuracies killing the success of the execution of a solid plan in a well known system. The actual mastery is in avoiding noise(mainly the unintended exploits) despite you are offering a consistent sandbox system (nothing scripted, if you so want) your challenge is build on.

You cannot say a sandbox-system is more interesting than a "reduced" but well controlled one with clean rules, such one as chess. It is simply because noise kills depth. So in fact a well controlled arena with a fixed preset of your character can offer a deeper experience, just like chess. This is more than likely true whenever managing a sandbox-system is over the designer's head.
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« Reply #1899 on: April 22, 2013, 04:43:37 pm »

Dark Souls is both a "sandbox game" and a planned-out puzzle game? wat.

But anyway, the "noise" in the combat of Dark Souls is a variety of interesting monsters, items, and environments. So yes, I'd say "noise" is fantastic in this case.

And trust me, if your game has "potentially innumerable ways of approaching a problem" then it for sure has "unintended exploits" by definition.
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