next »

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

On the path of my holy Quest of gaining all 3D graphics programming knowledge (a side-quest of the GainAllKnowledge quest), I finally stumbled over Normal Maps. After a fierce battle with the compiler, I finally won it got my XP, and were left with an artifact that I'm not sure of whether it will help me on my other side-quest ("make a 3D game you idiot").

I know that most indies here are the 2D types, yet I have no other community to ask about it ("normal mapped ASCII characters anyone?").

Although in terms of programming, using or not using Normal Maps is just (un)commenting a few lines of code, in terms of model design it's a big issue. Different techniques are used for low-poly modeling and different techniques are used for high-poly (and then rendering Normals to low-poly "frame"), so the whole model set needs to be designed with it in mind (to maintain visual set integrity).

This bugs me for a long time now, for I can't start doing models for my 3D game.

I would not give it a second thought if high-poly modeling would be significantly longer per model, but contrary to what most people think, the difference is not so big. OTOH, I would go with the high-poly models then, if it weren't for the fact that in-game for 90% of the time the models will be so small that the benefits of Normal-maps won't be THAT visible...

Any suggestions? Any comments? HEEEELP? :/

[PoV]

That's a good point that Normal/Displacement/Detail maps are only meaningful when there's enough resolution to show them off.  So for that, perhaps you can save your shader cycles for other per pixel operations, and go simply with a Phong shader as a smoother alternative to vertex lighting.  Either that, or push HD resolutions for your game if you're not already.

An altenative uses of shaders, especially for 2D'ish games, is a color replacement/tint map.  Generally speaking, by moving to modern 3D hardware we've given up the ability to recolor things by palette.  We've been able to recolor/tint an object as a whole with vertex colors or different textures, but not parts like hat or shirt color.  A color replacement/tint map would be a low bit map (1-4 bit's, 2-16 color variation regions essentially) that you identify regions of a texture that are explicitly different parts.  You'd then use that as an index to look up in to a specific color table or equivalent texture.  This is just theory though, as I haven't made the opportunity to try it yet.

I think I've also seen papers on slightly better than DXT texture compression driven by shaders, so that's another possible use if you have shader cycles to burn.

[raigan]

Bah, 3D -- DoomRL is 90853x better than any 3D game!

Seriously, if it's just you working on it, I'd think that using the simplest possible approach would be best, at least until the game part is mostly done. For instance, flatshaded + wireframe could be a cool style.

I'll attach an example pic -- it's images from Spore's level editor (from various presentations given by the team) and some in-game-models. Personally, I think the editor graphics are _way_ cooler looking than the boring smooth-3D-in-game models -- how can you not love that boxy scorpion?!

Plus, if everything is boxes then it would be much easier to blow things apart -- boxes are one of the simplest things to simulate! There are a lot of potential benefits to using "weird alternative 3D".

[Outer God]

just out of plain curiosity, but wat 3D modeling program do you use?  i'm using 3DSMax atm.  i've never tried modeling in high poly for fear of uber slow down.  stupid crappy computer.

oh, and raigan, you have crazy taste...but i dig it

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

PoV, thank you for your technical insight . True that in normal gameplay the normal maps won't be seen. Yet, in the "repair/upgrade/buy" screens they would look realy cool. Also, sometimes I'm inclined to believe that high-poly modeling is easier - you don't have to worry about polycount, and don't have to pat so much attention to texture detail. I always personally felt that it's easier to do a well-detailed model, then a well-textured one :/.

raigan, thank you :D. Although wireframe/boxes won't go well with the genre I've chosen (Flatspace/Elite/Frontier style game). Spaceships are blocky in their own world so making them even blockier would miss the point . Yet I also dig the "alternative 3D"-style. Maybe for another* project.

Outer God, I use solely 3ds MAX. Tried with many others (including Blender, Maya, Cinema 4D, Lightwave and a few others) but they realy lack in the power department :/. Too bad considering the cost for a 3ds MAX licence, but fortunately I might solve this problem soon . As for slowdowns I'm not afraid -- I recently made a HW upgrade :D. With enough RAM and a few CPU's there's nothing to be afraid of in max (except uber long HD quality animation rendering times xP).


(*) ANOTHER??? Are you out of your mind???

[Outer God]

yeh, animations take forever to render, especially cos of lighting.  i usually just use normal lights with an ambient light in the scene rather than advanced lighting or 3rd party plugins to keep the render times low.

wish i had max 9, cos max 8 is heaps slower

[FARTRON]

Although wireframe/boxes won't go well with the genre I've chosen (Flatspace/Elite/Frontier style game).

What?

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Although wireframe/boxes won't go well with the genre I've chosen (Flatspace/Elite/Frontier style game).

What?

Who'd play such a game today except us hardkore gamerz

[FARTRON]

If you build it, they will come.

[PoV]

Right from the TIGSource homepage.  Though yeah, maybe it is "hardcore" only.

[Derek]

Although wireframe/boxes won't go well with the genre I've chosen (Flatspace/Elite/Frontier style game).

What?

Who'd play such a game today except us hardkore gamerz

This coming from a man who makes ROGUELIKES.  And still with no graphical tiles, I might add (although that's partially my fault).

[Slash - Santiago Zapata]

I thought the tiles were ready already, so don't blame yourself... it is all Kornel's fault :D

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Sure, there are some people that play those games... yet... hell, I can do more ^_^

Derek, don't worry, I'll wait 'till the Aquaria craze quiets down a *little* bit . And I have my own problems as for now anyway ^_^.