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[Craig Stern]

Maybe it's just my imagination, but I keep seeing people here talking about people who play Flash games as being somehow distinct from indie gamers. I don't know if this stems from the "casual vs. indie" debate or what, but I'm curious to know where folks are coming from with this, so I'm making this thread to find out. If you know what I'm talking about, feel free to throw me a bone.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I think the types of games most people make in Flash are different from the types of games most people make here. However, I don't think it's true that Flash games aren't indie games (although not *all* Flash games are Indie games of course). But some of the best indie games were made in Flash -- N, Dofus, Dino Run, and so on, I could name a dozen or two.

[Annabelle Kennedy]

i think.. most of the thing comes from the fact that 99% of the flash games out there are made with no love.. and just to get a quick buck from 'sponsorship'...

obviously not *all* flash games are this way... but the current 'market' for flash games right now brings in a lot of those types.

[cmspice]

Annabelle is right. (most) Flash games are made for profit and really aren't all that different from commercial games. For every crappy commercial shooting game DOOM clone, there's a gimmicky flash physics game. While likely not as strict as the commercial world, any flash developer is ultimately under the control of one of the few large (definitely not indy) flash game sites. etc etc etc.

Okay, pardon the abrupt end, I had more to write, honest. But I suddenly got really tired . Night.

[___]

i think.. most of the thing comes from the fact that 99% of the flash games out there are made with no love.. and just to get a quick buck from 'sponsorship'...

obviously not *all* flash games are this way... but the current 'market' for flash games right now brings in a lot of those types.

Agreeeeeed.  When it comes to flash games, or all web browser games, I just don't feel the same attachment as I do with the good ole downloadable games that I play locally on my PC (instead of in a damn browser window.)  I know that flash can be downloaded and played on the PC... but there's just something about flash that doesn't sit right with me, and I have no idea really why that is.

When I see yet another "defend a central point on the screen with your mouse" game from Armor Games or whatever, I just can't appreciate it the same way I appreciate the games that show up on these forums or on the front page.

And yeah, a majority of flash games are clones of other flash games, looking to cash in quick on ads embedded in the flash file, or surrounding it on the site it's on.  I'm not going to say making money is a bad thing, but making that quick buck on the ads is often a huge motivator with some flash games out there, and it really does show at times.

[Farmergnome]

haw haw haw no.

What says indies cant be in the flash market, its just a tool after all (I guess it should be, browser vs downloadable).  I think its just flooded with alot of crap, but then, so is shareware and freeware, whats wrong with making some money of sponsorship?

I for one am learning flash so I can in future churn out cheap shitty click shooters and finally reach my longstanding dream of making games for a living.

Oh im so confused 

[Cagey]

Hahah i can so relate to that Farmergnome. I have big dreams of making awesome games (in flash) but I've got a half finished dodgyass game that could make me some money real quick. Just... can't.. bring myself to do it.

[Alec]

Edmund does both!

Gish

Coil

Somehow he found a way to travel between the real world and the D dimension.

[Cagey]

Coil seems a tad deeper than your standard flash game

Funnily enough I could see gish working quite well as a flash game.

[Farmergnome]

Hahah i can so relate to that Farmergnome. I have big dreams of making awesome games (in flash) but I've got a half finished dodgyass game that could make me some money real quick. Just... can't.. bring myself to do it.

Hahah so true, I just finished porting one of my unreleased games to as2, im realy seriously selling it, but exactly like you, dont realy want to release garbage (or anything judging by track record!).  Its hard when you got bills to pay and dreams of making bigger better games, but cant bring yourself to sell the simplest of games, own worst enemy?

Edmund is clearly awesome Alec, thats his excuse.

I would love to hear from some people who have made decent coin producing quality titles in flash for sponsors, not some dodgy few hour long shovelware, I mean something that took weeks to make, it seems quality is only dictated by how much these sponsors pay to the majority.  Ive heard rumors some games fetch into the 10k + range, though few and far between, most seems to be under 1k ish, which would explain why most of the games are built to that budget, in general rushed, cloned garbage.

Im ranting, but I hope im moving in the right direction.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

That coil game is pretty weird! I'm surprised Armor Games paid for that (not that it's not worth it, I'm just surprised they did, considering the other types of games they deal with).

But yes, I think how much they are bought for (less than 1k each or so I've heard) has more to do with their quality than simply that they're somewhat commercial. If you know that a game, no matter how good it is, is only going to earn you a few hundred dollars, there's not much incentive to spend more than a week or so on it or to put much love into it. So I don't think merely that they're done for money is the problem, the problem is also that the money is so bad. In order to make a living making Flash games you'd have to churn out 20-30 games a year!

It's also probably hard to be more independent and just keep the Flash game on your site, because people tend to play Flash games on the popular Flash game sites, and don't hear of them or play them unless they are on those sites.

[___]

Edmund does both!

Gish

Coil

Somehow he found a way to travel between the real world and the D dimension.

Edmund is the one with the... ?

[Cagey]

Hahah so true, I just finished porting one of my unreleased games to as2, im realy seriously selling it, but exactly like you, dont realy want to release garbage (or anything judging by track record!).  Its hard when you got bills to pay and dreams of making bigger better games, but cant bring yourself to sell the simplest of games, own worst enemy?

I'm working on it! Fortunately for me, I've got 0 bills to pay, but that means minimal motivation. Must. Motivate. Self!  

According to here Bloons has recieved at least 7.7 million ad impressions which would be a fair amount of money. Pity theres no post-mortem or something similar around. Still, it seems like a traditional "flash" game. I guess N is what I shout about most when promoting Flash's awesomeness.

Mochiland has some very nice articles on flash games as a business.

It's also probably hard to be more independent and just keep the Flash game on your site, because people tend to play Flash games on the popular Flash game sites, and don't hear of them or play them unless they are on those sites.

That's not such a problem now, because it's so easy to embed ads in your game. It means your game can become viral and you still profit from it. Also, i wouldn't say the money is bad. It's definately dependant more on targeting the lower denominator than making a properly good game though thats for sure.

[muku]

For those who haven't read it yet, this series of articles on monetizing a Flash game from a developer's perspective was very illuminating to me (me being a person who didn't have the slightest clue how the Flash game business works).

I can definitely see the attraction. If you put three hours into making a game and it nets you a few hundred dollars, and you do that once a week, that could easily become your source of funding for more serious game projects.

From a player's point of view, I have to admit to having logged more than my fair share of hours into Kongregrate at some point. I do feel somewhat guilty for it afterwards; it's like a fast food binge. There's rarely any real substance, most of the bigger games are just time-sucking, soulless tower defense games, but once you have started it's very easy to get into that "just one more level" rut, for me at least. Maybe I'm too easily drawn into that kind of stuff.

The metagame aspect at Kongregate is however interesting, and recently it got even more interesting because of Kongai. Now there's a Flash game with some serious design considerations behind it. It was designed by David Sirlin (the guy who designed Street Figher, among others).

[Valter]

Wow, most of you rail against flash games. I find them possibly more entertaining, and I've spent more time on them than downloadable games.

While there may be more crap, there's more good games, too, and while it may falter under games like Cave Story and La Mulana, there's a whole crapload more good flash games to choose from.

If you really don't like flash games, try Kongregate. Greg does a good job with finding good games in the sea of bad ones, and the presence of ads is fairly minimal, considering. If you're having trouble with flash games, you're probably just looking in the wrong places.

[c-foo peng]

It was designed by David Sirlin (the guy who designed Street Figher, among others).

Redesigned Super Street Fighter II Turbo you mean.

In any case, I'm with xerus on this one. There's just something DIFFERENT about flash games. My theory is that it has something to do with the framerate/input lag. More or less, sacrificing a smoother gameplay experience for a wider distribution.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I'm not saying they're any less entertaining, just that they have a distinct style from most indie games we make here.

They tend to be much shorter, intended for short bursts of play of 30 minutes or less, so they appeal to people who have less time to play games.

They tend to focus primarily on gameplay, and be weaker everywhere else, whereas downloadable games also focus often on the story or graphics or music, creating an immersive world. Flash games are less immersive in general.

They tend to focus on getting a high score. A huge portion of them have high score tables. So they resemble early arcade games in that regard. Whereas downloadable indie games tend to resemble early console games, where score was less important than exploration of the game's world.

It's just a difference in taste, one isn't necessarily more fun than the other, but they do tend to appeal to different types of audiences and provide different types of entertainment.

[Craig Stern]

But yes, I think how much they are bought for (less than 1k each or so I've heard) has more to do with their quality than simply that they're somewhat commercial. If you know that a game, no matter how good it is, is only going to earn you a few hundred dollars, there's not much incentive to spend more than a week or so on it or to put much love into it. So I don't think merely that they're done for money is the problem, the problem is also that the money is so bad. In order to make a living making Flash games you'd have to churn out 20-30 games a year!

Your games would have to be pretty terrible to fetch only a few hundred dollars from a major sponsor like Armor Games! Trust me when I say that you wouldn't have to pump out nearly that many games to live off sponsorship money, provided that your games were of decent quality and enjoyable to play.

[arrogancy]

It was designed by David Sirlin (the guy who designed Street Figher, among others).

Redesigned Super Street Fighter II Turbo you mean.

In any case, I'm with xerus on this one. There's just something DIFFERENT about flash games. My theory is that it has something to do with the framerate/input lag. More or less, sacrificing a smoother gameplay experience for a wider distribution.

There is no technical reason for a flash game to be 'different,' actually.

[Bennett]

My point of view on this is that making flash games can either benefit or detract from creativity.
 
1) Clearly there are many (even a majority) of flash game developers who just make awful clones with no love. Bjork said 'imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but it is also a kind of flattery that robs you' and I think that all the 'tower defense' clones are in a sense robbing Paul Preece.

2) On the other hand, since it is so quick to build and deploy games in flash, you are freed to be really inventive and creative with your designs, and still make money. You also get a bigger audience, which is creatively rewarding. If cactus was making his games in flash, he'd make a very healthy wage and millions more people would get to experience his games.

For my last flash game - admittedly a casual game - I spent a few days making it and then without any effort at all, I got offers from two aggregators who wanted to license it nonexclusively for around $1k. If I bothered to send out a few emails I could have done this half a dozen more times, and if I had made a really good game like DinoRun I could have demanded much more money each time.

I didn't make that game to make money, but I admit I did spend a few minutes thinking about who the target audience would be and what kind of ads to put up.

For me, this means I just make the game I want to make, with love, and then money rolls in, which would never happen if I was making a downloadable game.

(Downloadable) indie games and flash games have something in common, actually - short play length and low development budget. I think what's exciting about indie development is that it is a return to the creativity of the late 70s and early 80s, where one or two guys could make a game on their own in a few weeks, and take risks. Putting your game on flash means that you can make a living this way.

I think indie devs should look at the state of flash gaming - see the huge audience, and also see the terrible quality of the majority of games - and look at it as an unexploited niche. I so wish I could share games like 'you got the grappling hook' with all my non-gamer friends who have macs.