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[GregWS]

That comment about platformers reminded me of Golds' (Doomlaser's) game Shit Game, if you haven't played it, you really should now.

That said, there is more innovation from indies than flash games, even if there is an equal amount of indie crap.  The difference is that the indie crap is called crap and stays in the shadows, and the flash crap makes money and is played far more than it should.  Actually, the big thing I hate about the semi-new owners of Game Maker, YoYo Games, is that they're trying to flash-ify GM games with their flash portal-like site.  Were it not for Mark Overmars continued involvement, I'd be a lot angrier about it all, but it's always been his product, so he can do what he'd like with it.

Actually, all of this reminded me about what pissed me off about WarioWare for the Wii; it looked like a flash game!

[Corpus]

Like I said in the Projects forum, people who play Flash games are not necessarily indie gamers, but CAN be.

Flash games are generally played by bored office workers or students who want to kill time in their lunch hour. Simply playing indie games doesn't make you an indie gamer. You need to be a gamer with an indie attitude, not just someone trying to fill the time between sandwiches and Excel.

[Annabelle Kennedy]

Flash games are generally played by bored office workers or students who want to kill time in their lunch hour. Simply playing indie games doesn't make you an indie gamer. You need to be a gamer with an indie attitude, not just someone trying to fill the time between sandwiches and Excel.

this, is very true i agree.

[muku]

So.... what is a gamer with an indie attitude?

[GregWS]

Here, Derek summed it up nicely ages ago:
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=7.0

For me, I guess I wouldn't even say an "indie" attitude is necessary, I think it would be better to say an attitude that takes games seriously is what's necessary.  For instance, not treating the game Execution as a joke.

Oh, and is one of the indiest games ever, "You Have To Burn The Rope" flash, because it doesn't seem like it, but I think it is.  And if it is, then maybe it is the typical flash vector graphics that make me usually hate flash.

[december]

I started coming here just to get free games (and because I loved Eternal Daughter and found this place googling for Derek Yu) and I ended up paying for Noitu Love 2 so I kinda consider myself as a failure of original indie spirit or something.

[muku]

Here, Derek summed it up nicely ages ago:
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=7.0

To me, that seems to be more about the indie developer attitude, as opposed to the indie player attitude.

For me, I guess I wouldn't even say an "indie" attitude is necessary, I think it would be better to say an attitude that takes games seriously is what's necessary.  For instance, not treating the game Execution as a joke.

Yeah, that's a statement I can understand and get behind.

[agj]

The 'indie scene' is games by gamers and for gamers. People making games in it rarely make money off their games, because there is no easy way to promote and sell them. The Flash platform, on the other hand, is of broad and easy access, and there are many ways to get revenue through it. People who want to play just for a few minutes may find that installing a game will chew away a big part of the time that they could be playing, so why not just play straight from the browser (they can also instantly know whether they like the game or not). In the end this is what marks the distinction; most indie developers don't care to cater to the insta-play crowd, but those players are so abundant that there are a lot of people who take advantage of that market to make some easy money.

[arrogancy]

Yeah--and the way to make an "indie" game with game maker that everyone adores is to make yet another side-scrolling platformer with slightly different pixel graphics, right? I'm not convinced that Flash is somehow the bigger offender here.

And isn't part of the "hype" of pixel graphics the fact that it's technically possible for non artists to actually do pixel graphics while being aesthetically pleasing, as opposed to higher res 2D fully animated sprites, where they'd probably fail? I wonder how much of the push in that direction and the frowning on "modern looking games" is due strictly to that - sprite artists are in relatively high demand and it's much less likely for a guy doing games for free to be able to find someone that can do it for them, so pixel art is the next best choice. Otherwise, in an era where an artist's vision can completely come to life with no limitations - to bash anything that uses this in favor of the limitations, which I've seen here at times and elsewhere, is irrational.

Note that I didn't say that pixel art was easy; just that it is human nature to praise/push things that you can relate to more.

Also, it is somewhat interesting that a lot of the indie designers who are making the most money now all got their game designing "start" in...Flash. For instance Tom Fulp, whose Castle Crashers is estimated to have made 1.2 million in the first week was making free Flash games 6 years ago and still does.

*Here's another secret; I did most of the animations for my current game in Flash. 

[raiten]

And isn't part of the "hype" of pixel graphics the fact that it's technically possible for non artists to actually do pixel graphics while being aesthetically pleasing, as opposed to higher res 2D fully animated sprites, where they'd probably fail?

I for one wish I COULD do pixel graphics.

[raiten]

also, there are so many great pixel artists around, but it seems like nearly all of those rather do download games than flash. why's that? I'd love to see more pixels in flash. In fact, I'd love to do collaborations with skilled pixel artists.

[Edmund]

That coil game is pretty weird! I'm surprised Armor Games paid for that (not that it's not worth it, I'm just surprised they did, considering the other types of games they deal with).

But yes, I think how much they are bought for (less than 1k each or so I've heard) has more to do with their quality than simply that they're somewhat commercial. If you know that a game, no matter how good it is, is only going to earn you a few hundred dollars, there's not much incentive to spend more than a week or so on it or to put much love into it. So I don't think merely that they're done for money is the problem, the problem is also that the money is so bad. In order to make a living making Flash games you'd have to churn out 20-30 games a year!

It's also probably hard to be more independent and just keep the Flash game on your site, because people tend to play Flash games on the popular Flash game sites, and don't hear of them or play them unless they are on those sites.

I read this and had to reply, i havent read this whole thread yet so excuse me if this was mentioned.

Good flash games get from 5-12k a game.. not less then 1k. and if you want to add some ads to them you will rake in another 1k per million views if you feel like having a forced ad in your game (i did this once and wasnt happy with how lame it looked when you started, also only make like $50 a month off it).

But yeah, if you make a good game im 100% possitive that you can easily get about 5k for it, and if your a good salesmen you can get a lot more. that fancy pants game got over 16k from its sponsor.. so keep this stuff in mind.

-Edmund

[Renton]

The 'indie scene' is games by gamers and for gamers.

Interplay, anyone?

[Craig Stern]

Ah, nostalgia! :D It's too bad they're not around anymore.

As far as the degree of innovation you see in flash games vs. other indie games, I think that depends on the genre. Comparing the cookie-cutter "indie" crap that people pump out in RPG Maker to the innovative indie stuff I've seen in Flash, I'd take Flash RPGs any day of the week.

[Xenophobe]

To me flash games look like someone took an old game, and copy pasted random shit onto it.

[Radnom]

Someone also said that the money you earn from a flash game you made in 3 months would be only marginally more than a game that you made in 3 weeks, but I don't think that's true either. Maybe the reason most flash games aren't that ambitious is that us flash artists are all starving and can't go without a paycheck for that long?

Then how the hell did you afford Flash in the first place