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[Orz]

I'm a US Citizen, and am going to be working for a German company, in Germany, for at least a couple years.  Under these circumstances, what are my options for selling my self-developed games?  I've read Derek's sticky, but I'm not sure how much of it applies to expatriates.  Anyone run into this situation before?

[nyyjen]

Do you want to start a company in Germany or the US?

As far as I know, you don't have to be a proper citizen to run a company in the EU or US. For example, I am German, but founded a company in the UK.

The only thing might be is, that you have to jump through some money hoops. Problems with getting company bank accounts... But usually these things can be sorted out.

[aschearer]

Hi Orz, I've recently moved to the Netherlands from the United States and am also in the process of starting my own company here. These are the steps I took to figure out what needed to happen, I hope they're helpfully and that it's as easy to do in Germany as it is in the Netherlands:

  1. Call the immigration department or stop by to talk to someone
I initially called the Dutch immigration department to figure out what I needed to do. It turned out the easiest thing was to go to their office in Amsterdam, get a number, and then talk to someone. After I met with an official I received a visa application form.
  2. Identify what type of visa you need
In my case, the Netherlands offers visas for "one person businesses" so that was what I applied for. Hopefully Germany offers something similar. Most likely you will be able to determine what options are applicable for you after talking to someone and looking through the application form.
  3. Call the chamber of commerce and try to set up a meeting
As with the immigration department, I think it's worth going to the chamber of commerce and learning what the ins and outs are for the various business types. In the United States it's common to start a LLC however in the Netherlands it is much more difficult to do so. You'll want to find out what's available in Germany and see what makes sense for your situation. Ideally after meeting with someone you'll have the necessary forms to apply for your business.
  4. Fill out forms and submit them to respective bureaus.
Once I had all the necessary information I completed the forms and submitted them. Just applying cost me roughly 700 euros! In my case it was necessary to provide proof of my address, proof of U.S. citizenship (passport, birth certificate with apostle), registration of the business at the chamber of commerce, and proof of ### euros in a bank account.

Some things to look for:
  1. There may be a German-U.S. treaty you can benefit from
  2. There may be capital requirements to start the business
  3. You may need a business document
  4. It may be that each department requires something from each other department. Most likely you can file a partial application to one department to jumpstart the process

I hope that helps and best of luck!

[Orz]

Thanks very much.  If there's a choice, I don't really have a preference for where I start the business.  I really just want to know that there's a way to legally sell my projects if they become popular enough.  I think the business environment will be better in the US (especially after the election), and taxes will be lower.

Would you mind telling me why you chose the specific countries you did? 

[Chris Koźmik]

You are citizen of US, you are doing everything according to US laws (selling games). Where you actually live right now is of no importance (the same way you don't need to reregister your company when you visit a country as a tourist during holidays).

When you start working for foreign company in foreign country you need to abide to that country rules (Germany), but only in terms of working there.

These two things, selling games (as US citizen) and working in Germany (as someone working in the German territory) have nothing to do with each other (except for personal tax, you will *probably* pay it in US). German tax office will not even need to know you sell any games (as US citizen in US territory), it is not their perogative.


As for starting a bussines US is no brainer. For example you can use Kickstarter, Google Wallet for devs (receiving payments), Android marketplace, etc (none of these can be used if you are citizen of Germany).

As far as I know, you don't have to be a proper citizen to run a company in the EU or US. For example, I am German, but founded a company in the UK.

Not exactly true. Germany and UK are UE, so there is one unified law there (if you are EU citizen you can start a business in any other EU country, that's why this is called "Union"). US is completely another country and another set of laws, you can not start a bussiness there freely (you most likely need to change your citizenship).

[Orz]

Interesting.  Anyone know about state and municipal residency?  For example, am I a resident of the state I lived in last, the state I lived in longest, or can I declare residency anywhere?

[aschearer]

The main reason I started my business in the Netherlands is because in order to stay and work I needed the proper visa. In my case I applied for a "one-person business" visa which lets me stay in the country and work for my own company. There was no way that I could find which would let me start the company in the United States and then continue living and working in the Netherlands for longer than three months. If you plan on staying in Europe for an extended period of time and are not an EU citizen you may wish to determine what the visa requirements are for your case. Otherwise I agree Archibald that starting the company in the United States is preferable. Best of luck!

[mikejkelley]

TINLA. The purpose of starting a business is to shield your personal assets from litigation.

These two things, selling games (as US citizen) and working in Germany (as someone working in the German territory) have nothing to do with each other (except for personal tax, you will *probably* pay it in US).

That sums it up. If I remember from correctly from my days working abroad, you've no tax liability from your day job until you make 6 figures (don't quote me on that). If you incorporate in the US you'll incur taxes in the course of doing business.

As for starting a bussines US is no brainer. For example you can use Kickstarter, Google Wallet for devs (receiving payments), Android marketplace, etc (none of these can be used if you are citizen of Germany).

Just to be clear, you can't crowdfund a business, only products. Crowdfunding a business is still very illegal. Typically you can't even publicly declare how much your private co. is worth as that constitutes a public offer of sale. That may all change radically when the Jobs Bill kicks in though.

For example, am I a resident of the state I lived in last, the state I lived in longest, or can I declare residency anywhere?

Typically, ppl who are not doing the majority of their business in the state in which their business is located like to incorporate in Deleware. Usually you'll want to be an LLC. If you anticipate large investors, inc. as some sort of corp.

[nyyjen]

European companies have received Kickstarter funds by creating a US branch of their business.

Also 2 years ago at GDC there was a case of a German, living in Germany, who was a founding partner in a US game's company (without ever having lived in the US, as far as I could tell). So I don't think that the citizenship itself is a hurdle for founding a company in either US or EU.

Read this for the US:
http://www.infotaxsquare.com/view_article.php?id=201

And read this for the EU:
http://www.transitionsabroad.com/listings/work/careers/articles/starting-business-in-europe-financial-legal-visa.shtml

In both cases a work permit or citizenship is not required to start up a business, if I am reading the info correctly.

Edit:

Also a side note on taxes. The moment you start living (proper visa) in a foreign country, they will want to know about ALL of your income in any country of the world. Depending on the country pairing you might run into issues of double taxation, simply because not every country has a tax treaty with every other country out there. There were quite a few people I met in Japan who had to pay double taxes (to Japan and their home country) because there didn't exist a tax treaty.

I think the best thing is to consult with an accountant or other tax specialist on these matters. Don't want to trust people on the internet when it comes to taxes .

[Chris Koźmik]

TINLA. The purpose of starting a business is to shield your personal assets from litigation.

Not always true. The most basic types of business (like sole trader) do not shield you from anything (but is also the cheapest, simpliest and the most convenient).
Also, in some/most countries you are required to setup a business to sell anything.
Plus, many services are unavialable unless you are a company (so it's kind of convenient).

Just to be clear, you can't crowdfund a business, only products. Crowdfunding a business is still very illegal.

Depening on country. This is not a general rule, you need to check it with your country legislation.

The moment you start living (proper visa) in a foreign country, they will want to know about ALL of your income in any country of the world.

I'm not sure about that one... Especially if you are EU citizen you are given a lot of rights in all other EU countries (freedom of living, working and setting a business everywhere without changing citizenship)... I suggest to check that one for your specific situation.

[Orz]

This is all very helpful, thanks to everyone!  nyyjen, thanks for that link about non-resident business owners. 

I think the US is the only first-world country that taxes expats.  So I am prepared for double taxation, although I'm not likely to make enough that I need to pay it. 

I would probably incorporate in the state where I grew up - I know more about the business environment there, and there are more people I would trust as a resident agent.

[MrDodo]

I moved from Spain to the Netherlands, and if you moved inside EU (if somebody it's interested...) then you only need to follow points 3 and 4 (but they didn't ask me for any money at point 4!!):

  3. Call the chamber of commerce and try to set up a meeting
As with the immigration department, I think it's worth going to the chamber of commerce and learning what the ins and outs are for the various business types. In the United States it's common to start a LLC however in the Netherlands it is much more difficult to do so. You'll want to find out what's available in Germany and see what makes sense for your situation. Ideally after meeting with someone you'll have the necessary forms to apply for your business.
  4. Fill out forms and submit them to respective bureaus.
Once I had all the necessary information I completed the forms and submitted them. Just applying cost me roughly 700 euros! In my case it was necessary to provide proof of my address, proof of U.S. citizenship (passport, birth certificate with apostle), registration of the business at the chamber of commerce, and proof of ### euros in a bank account.

Anyway the conditions may differ in different places of EU. I know for sure the process is quite different in Spain.