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[SundownKid]

In general, you can post a game WIP on Greenlight, but don't expect to get as many votes as something almost complete. If they allowed only complete games, it still wouldn't affect their quality in any way, so why limit it?

Visual novels have sold quite well on Steam despite the so-called stigma, I think it comes down to not being generic.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

to clarify what i meant, just because something sells well somewhere doesn't mean there isn't also a stigma against it. for instance, many jrpgs sell well. ff12 and ff13 sold pretty well. but there is still a stigma against them. something only needs to sell to 5% or so of a platform's market to be a mega-hit; if you can make an iphone game that will sell to 5% of iphone users you'll never have to work again, even if the other 95% of iphone users have a stigma against games like that

basically genre bias can exist even if games in that genre sell superbly

[Falmil]

It doesn't need to only allow completed games, but the voting system isn't set up in some way to have users re-evaluate games that have been updated. All devs are doing is shooting themselves in the foot and then blaming the gun.

[SundownKid]

It doesn't need to only allow completed games, but the voting system isn't set up in some way to have users re-evaluate games that have been updated. All devs are doing is shooting themselves in the foot and then blaming the gun.

This I agree with. It needs to have better updates when the game is changed if you have favorited it. If this exists, I don't know, but I don't remember seeing any notifications.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

what i do when i see an incomplete game that might improve, is i downvote it and also favorite it. that way i can check back later

[Oskuro]

@Gabriel Verdon:

I understand your point, and actually share the feeling. I was just pointing the sad reality that, for any given medium (be it film, music, literature, games...) the majority of the audience (and thus the costumers) are not "medium-literate" (that is, don't see beyond the user-end of things).

A thing I like about this forum, (And JavaGaming.org where I post too) is that most of the participants are either developers themselves, or at least enthusiasts with a better understanding of the inner workings of the craft at hand, thus their opinions carry that extra bit of weight (I mean, ever tried having a game-related conversation in, say, The Escapist forums?).

It'd be nice if public outlets like Steam could attract that type of criticism of new materials, but sadly, the numbers still favour mass marketing. It's a bit like movie critics vs. what people end up seeing in theaters.


Now, it is true that good titles will bubble up to the surface just out of sheer awesomeness, it is just unfortunate how many promising projects who do not manage to make the jump to general audience attention can end up dying due to loneliness.


In the end, there's a luck factor involved. Generally in the form of someone with a moderate amount of clout talking about your game and making it known (I mean, Yatzhee ironically stating that Fantasy World Dizzy is the best game ever made surely has sparked a big deal of interest in the Dizzy series). I personally discovered many great games through articles on The Escapist, or someone ranting about it on Blistered Thumbs, or even through a comment in a gaming-related webcomic.


Aw, here I am being the realist-pessimist. I really need to dunk my head in a bucket full of sugar and sparkles.


Edit: Oh, and regarding your mention of the videogame crash, yeah, I knew about it, and yes, I agree that oversaturation of cheap money-grabs can bring down a whole market (As seems to be happening to facebook-based games). I do agree the tidal wave of independent developers screaming for attention and churning out subpar games in an attempt to make a quick sell will hurt the industry at large.

Unfortunately, there is little to be done about it really. If there is money to be made, these types will come flocking like vultures. And even if it pains us to see how it will hurt the industry in the long run... They have a right to try and sell their stuff.

The alternative would be... Well, iOS, XBLA, Android Market, etc... Where the private interest that owns the market has a say in what can or cannot be developed. I'd rather stay as we are than go there.

Gee, am I the ray of sunshine today or am I not? 

[Masakari]

XBLIG is considered a "joke platform" not just because of the mountains of shovelware people put in there. In fact, as far as I've seen it's not the #1 reason - I'd rate it third, behind #2 MS not promoting it, and #1 consumer / gamer expectation.

And the same thing is happening here, regarding #1 and #3. I feel many, if not most, of the Steam users going on Greenlight, are expecting super polished, great looking, 3D, AAA-rivaling games. They simply have a very unrealistic expectation, which is the complete opposite of the content available in Greenlight and XBLIG.

[rant]

Also, maybe this doesn't belong in this thread, but what is up with the whole "minecraft art style ripoff" thing? People can't use voxels and / or pixel art textures now? Minecraft is the sole thing that can use them until the endtimes? Talk about entitlement issues!

Using polygons, textures, and being brown and grey doesn't make most shooters nowadays Quake clones. Using painted textures doesn't make anything a WC3 / WoW clones. Syndicate isn't ripping off Mass Effect just because it uses some of the same art cues.

An art style is an art style, and no single game is entitled to be it's sole custodian.

[/rant]

[Oskuro]

Agreed on consumer expectations being out of proportion. But I like to think that those consumers are not the real audience indie games should aim for, so their disdain should not factor at all.


In my opinion, the big shock here is attempting to bring modestly developed games into a mainstream audience and market, and realizing that very few will get the monetary returns of juggernauts like Minecraft.

But that, again in my opinion, is because Minecraft and other similar successes are exceptions in our tiny world of under-advertised and under-funded projects. They can't really be the norm.

My suspicion is that this enthusiasm by large publishers for indie titles is (as it should, they are large for a reason) because they caught the scent of profit, and there's a thorough testing of the economic waters going on, so to speak.

We should be cautious, because if the decision is finally made that independent projects are not really worth the investment, these platforms will be dropped quicker than an angry badger on fire, and some people can be dragged along.

The whole "don't put all your eggs in one basket" and all.

[Uykered]

People probably aren't use to seeing low/bad quality graphics, but since everyone knows Minecraft it's their frame of reference.

[airman4]

those comments in that image you provided aren't really unwarranted. your game does look like minecraft and the gameplay does resemble edge. I down-voted your game too, it looks unimaginative and generic. hardly steam quality. I wouldn't play it if you paid me.

while the comments are a bit harsh, that doesn't make them wrong. and I don't think anyone is abusing it by posting how they feel. they see wyv and keep and it looks a whole like spelunky, so they immediately make that connection and comment and vote accordingly. that's not their fault, it's the developers fault for making a game that literally looks like a spelunky clone.

you say don't judge on graphics, but that's terrible thinking. if you are trying to sell and market a game, graphics and art style really do matter. I don't want to buy a game that looks like you literally just downloaded a minecraft texture pack.

edit: the top rated comment is spot on as well: http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/z4ult/rgaming_can_we_have_a_word_on_greenlight/c61hw54

In fact, I think some greedy devs are abusing the system more than steam users are. Most of the games submitted look like garbage and I really don't want Steam to turn into something like the App store.

This is totally true but tell me allen :
You never bought a game based on graphics and then was crushed down by the awful gameplay ?
I mean , some beautiful games can hide a awful gameplay and some awful or basic games can hide a gem

in term of fun and playing sessions.

To me , the gameplay is just the core of the game , the art comes after and then finally the story (as a bonus)
After that it depends , the story can comes close to the first point if it's a game like silent hill or Myst ?
But most of the times , the gameplay should be taken over the graphics according to my opinion.

I could bare ff13 because of this , and DQ 9 is a gem in comparaison.

[Oskuro]

People probably aren't use to seeing low/bad quality graphics, but since everyone knows Minecraft it's their frame of reference.

Hmmmmm, World of Warcraft had lower quality graphics when compared to its direct competitors at launch, yet it triumphed. I think, in part, it is because they had a defined style.

Good graphics is not about high definition textures, or multi-polyvexed-bloominiscence. It's about your graphics being memorable in some way. Minecraft, for example, is memorable by being ludicrously pixelated (The SUN is a SQUARE), a point that many miss.

[moi]

XBLIG is considered a "joke platform" not just because of the mountains of shovelware people put in there. In fact, as far as I've seen it's not the #1 reason - I'd rate it third, behind #2 MS not promoting it, and #1 consumer / gamer expectation.

And the same thing is happening here, regarding #1 and #3. I feel many, if not most, of the Steam users going on Greenlight, are expecting super polished, great looking, 3D, AAA-rivaling games. They simply have a very unrealistic expectation, which is the complete opposite of the content available in Greenlight and XBLIG.

At least on XBLIG the games aren't filtered by the same people who are supposed to discover and play the final prooduct, which IMO is a total artistic heresy.

In the end all the games will end up with "design by popularity" features

[Eigen]

I've been keeping away from SG with my game because I don't feel it's come far enough yet to be pitched like that. Once it reaches a stage when it is if SG has become any good by then I might consider it. Until then, no thanks. I'm taking my chances elsewhere. That's something I wish a lot of people would've done. Throwing your game up there with nothing but simple screenshots makes you look desperate. Which is honestly quite sad. It's like they know their game isn't going to be any good so this cheap publicity is all they're going to get anyway, why not use it. That or complete lack of self-criticism.

[Masakari]

XBLIG is considered a "joke platform" not just because of the mountains of shovelware people put in there. In fact, as far as I've seen it's not the #1 reason - I'd rate it third, behind #2 MS not promoting it, and #1 consumer / gamer expectation.

And the same thing is happening here, regarding #1 and #3. I feel many, if not most, of the Steam users going on Greenlight, are expecting super polished, great looking, 3D, AAA-rivaling games. They simply have a very unrealistic expectation, which is the complete opposite of the content available in Greenlight and XBLIG.

At least on XBLIG the games aren't filtered by the same people who are supposed to discover and play the final prooduct, which IMO is a total artistic heresy.

In the end all the games will end up with "design by popularity" features

You might not get onto Steam, and you got onto XBLIG, sure.

But the end result is the same, they don't make money - they "filter" them by not buying them, and then spread that the platform has bad games, hence the infamous reputation XBLIG has.

[Christian Knudsen]

I've been keeping away from SG with my game because I don't feel it's come far enough yet to be pitched like that. Once it reaches a stage when it is if SG has become any good by then I might consider it. Until then, no thanks. I'm taking my chances elsewhere. That's something I wish a lot of people would've done. Throwing your game up there with nothing but simple screenshots makes you look desperate. Which is honestly quite sad. It's like they know their game isn't going to be any good so this cheap publicity is all they're going to get anyway, why not use it. That or complete lack of self-criticism.

I'd never put up a game that I wouldn't otherwise have submitted to Steam through the old system. Simple as that.

But, yeah, I wish there was a higher level of qualification. Someone on Something Awful suggested that games should only show up on the Greenlight front page when they'd gathered a minimum number of upvotes from outside marketing/fanbase. That would probably stop a lot of the outright trolling projects as well as the terrible "MS Paint/my first game" projects.

[zalzane]

Hmmmmm, World of Warcraft had lower quality graphics when compared to its direct competitors at launch, yet it triumphed. I think, in part, it is because they had a defined style.

You're right, graphics has absolutely nothing to do with poly count or hi-res textures, it's all about the style. The fact of the matter is that good pixel art extremely hard to do, which is why a huge percentage of the pixelated games on greenlight are catching flak.

Also, maybe this doesn't belong in this thread, but what is up with the whole "minecraft art style ripoff" thing? People can't use voxels and / or pixel art textures now? Minecraft is the sole thing that can use them until the endtimes? Talk about entitlement issues!

Minecraft has an extremely specific aesthetic: large quantities of orthogonal voxels with 16 pixel textures slapped on them. Minecraft is everyone's first exposure to that aesthetic (I cant think of one instance of its use before minecraft). On top of that, minecraft has dozens of cash-grab clones that utilize the exact same style. Also to be quite honest, the minecraft aesthetic is extremely ugly which is why the only big game to have ever used it is minecraft.

So of course your game is going to get called a minecraft clone if it has that aesthetic, it takes an extremely specific set of parameters to make your game look like minecraft, and no other real game has used the aesthetic. It's a defining hallmark of the game.

I don't understand what you meant by entitlement issues though, I looked up the word to make sure but I still couldn't figure out what it meant in this context.

[VDZ]

Minecraft has an extremely specific aesthetic: large quantities of orthogonal voxels with 16 pixel textures slapped on them. Minecraft is everyone's first exposure to that aesthetic (I cant think of one instance of its use before minecraft). On top of that, minecraft has dozens of cash-grab clones that utilize the exact same style. Also to be quite honest, the minecraft aesthetic is extremely ugly which is why the only big game to have ever used it is minecraft.

So of course your game is going to get called a minecraft clone if it has that aesthetic, it takes an extremely specific set of parameters to make your game look like minecraft, and no other real game has used the aesthetic. It's a defining hallmark of the game.

Infiniminer. Notch based Minecraft's look on this game.

I don't understand what you meant by entitlement issues though, I looked up the word to make sure but I still couldn't figure out what it meant in this context.

It's a buzzword meant to say the other party is wrong and should feel bad about it, without giving any argument as to what's wrong about their thinking.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

You might not get onto Steam, and you got onto XBLIG, sure.

But the end result is the same, they don't make money - they "filter" them by not buying them, and then spread that the platform has bad games, hence the infamous reputation XBLIG has.

i think moi's point was that a lot of games that are currently on steam and sold moderately well would *not* have been games selected to get on steam by greenlight. instead they would have been downvoted to oblivion

examples: eversion, analogue: a hate story, the path, eufloria, windosill

people don't always know what games are good for them (or good for some niche they are not a part of) based on the average public impression of its screenshots and a few seconds of video. sometimes they can more accurately judge what people will enjoy playing by hiring a few guys to play through a game to the end

[Oskuro]

<digression> Gee, that infiniminer screenie does move around, doesn't it? Here, some variation:

I spot quite a few style differences beyond "Voxel Engine". 


Conversely, it also pisses me off when people equate voxel engine to Minecraft rip-off so, in the spirit of fairness:

  </digression>

[Klaim]

Greenlight really needs a way to weight people's vote.