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[Madnis]

Both Java and C# are Turing-complete, and so is pretty much everything else, so the question of power always seems a little religious to me. My next project will be programmed using a roll of masking tape and a hole punch. Or maybe butterfly wings. :D

(ie you will be able to make your game in either)

.... now if we want to consider convenience, flexibility, portability, personal style...

My vote is just do it. Each language has something different to teach and represents a different way of thinking. Java is not that bad (especially now) and C#, practically speaking, is Windows-only.

[muku]

Both Java and C# are Turing-complete, and so is pretty much everything else, so the question of power always seems a little religious to me.

I'll agree with you once you do this:

My next project will be programmed using a roll of masking tape and a hole punch. Or maybe butterfly wings. :D

 

[seregrail7]

Since we are on the subject of Java, what are some of the better 2D libraries out there for Java? It's my last year in college and I'm looking at what different options I have for making my game cross-platform.

[Madnis]

I'll agree with you once you do this:

My next project will be programmed using a roll of masking tape and a hole punch. Or maybe butterfly wings. :D

 

Give me infinite time and, an endless roll of tape, and a 'masking-tape/hole-punch' compiler, and I will. Until then, I will continue to make audacious claims and back them up with lessons in computer science so pretentiously theoretical that they have no bearing on the real world whatsoever.

Don't make me bust out the Pigeonhole principle.

 

[muku]

Yeah, I mean I know what Turing completeness means. I just found it funny how you said one thing and then basically the direct opposite (if in an ironic way) in the next one.

Or, put another way, do you really insist that what you as one person, given your finite resources of time and patience, could accomplish with either punched cards or, say, Java, is identical? Because that's the definition of power of a language to me.

And I really want to see you fit the pigeonhole principle into this discussion

[bateleur]

My next project will be programmed using a roll of masking tape and a hole punch.

Pro tip: Masking tape is sticky on one side. Avoid.

[dustin]

Since we are on the subject of Java, what are some of the better 2D libraries out there for Java? It's my last year in college and I'm looking at what different options I have for making my game cross-platform.

Slick is what I use.  It's opengl accelerated but made to do 2d graphics so it's blazing fast and runs on mac, windows, and linux.

http://slick.cokeandcode.com/

[Madnis]

Or, put another way, do you really insist that what you as one person, given your finite resources of time and patience, could accomplish with either punched cards or, say, Java, is identical? Because that's the definition of power of a language to me.

I admit that my posts are ridiculous, and have been more to get a laugh out of the discussion than anything. On a serious note: IMHO, the power of a language depends on what you are trying to do. A grammar + infinite tape is a very powerful theoretical tool. Java is probably the most powerful cross-platform tool. Python is powerful for RAD and scripting, but Lua is (arguably) the more powerful embedded scripting language. C++ is the most powerful language for shooting yourself in the leg.

When trying to make a game, the difference between one modern object-oriented language and another is not that great IMHO. As far as making a decent game (or finishing any game), it certainly doesn't play as big a role as the person behind the keyboard.

"I want to make a game and I know language X, should I learn new langauge Y?" No, absolutely not.
"I'm frustrated with language X and can't get anything done, should I learn new language Y?" Yes.
"I want to learn a new way of doing things, should I learn new language X?" Yes.

And I really want to see you fit the pigeonhole principle into this discussion

Well, it requires some butchering, but here goes...
Given n games that have been created and m languages in existence, where n > m, it's fairly certain there's been > 1 game written in one or many of those languages. The assumption is that each language has been used to write -any- games, but I feel that's pretty safe... Even Fortran and COBOL have at least Blackjack.

Pro tip: Masking tape is sticky on one side. Avoid.

 :D

Of course, I was referring to "Johnny the Hole-Punch: One Office-bot's Quest for Turing-completeness", a platformer title featuring masking-tape grappling hook, where he fights of hordes of Fortran-powered card shuffling minions inhabiting the bowels of the IT department.

... we are way off-topic... lol

[increpare]

When trying to make a game, the difference between one modern object-oriented language and another is not that great IMHO.

Right; functional programming FTW!

[muku]

Well, it requires some butchering, but here goes...
Given n games that have been created and m languages in existence, where n > m, it's fairly certain there's been > 1 game written in one or many of those languages.

Don't you cheat now, there's no probability involved in the pigeonhole principle

[Madnis]

Well, it requires some butchering, but here goes...
Given n games that have been created and m languages in existence, where n > m, it's fairly certain there's been > 1 game written in one or many of those languages.

Don't you cheat now, there's no probability involved in the pigeonhole principle

Now you're just baiting me! 

Ok, rewrite:
Given n games that have been created and m languages suitable for creating games, where n > m, one or more of those languages have been used to create > 1 games.

</offtopic>

[Hajo]

Java is quite suitable to develop a wide variety of games. A while ago I decided to make it my language of choice, despite the slower execution time. Mostly because I liked the networking support and many of the libraries that come with Java or which are available.

What I like less among Java, is, that there is no standardized way to start applications on different operation systems. Applets work, Webstart works also, so it's not a big problem, just not as elegant as things could be.

But language fights are futile - everyone has a "best" language of their choice, and it most likely really is the best for them. Because they like it, know it, can do magic with it.

Unless you can come up with a list of requirements, and cross-check languages against it which fulfills the requirements best, any of the big languages is likely to do the job. And if you make such a list, don't forget points like "Know already/Want to learn", since those are as important as purely functional requirements. Also points like "Has a helpful community" might influence your choice.

[mildmojo]

Also points like "Has a helpful community" might influence your choice.

Depending on the language, this can make or break your decision.

I tried Prolog once...

[StewartRoonie]

Java is quite suitable to develop a wide variety of games. A while ago I decided to make it my language of choice, despite the slower execution time. Mostly because I liked the networking support and many of the libraries that come with Java or which are available.

What I like less among Java, is, that there is no standardized way to start applications on different operation systems. Applets work, Webstart works also, so it's not a big problem, just not as elegant as things could be.

But language fights are futile - everyone has a "best" language of their choice, and it most likely really is the best for them. Because they like it, know it, can do magic with it.

Unless you can come up with a list of requirements, and cross-check languages against it which fulfills the requirements best, any of the big languages is likely to do the job. And if you make such a list, don't forget points like "Know already/Want to learn", since those are as important as purely functional requirements. Also points like "Has a helpful community" might influence your choice.

Hi Hojo,

Thanks for the useful information and hope to read more from you.

Java is a programming language with a number of features that make the language well suited for use on the World Wide Web. Small Java applications are called Java applets and can be downloaded from a Web server and run on your computer by a Java-compatible Web browser, such as Netscape Navigator or Microsoft Internet Explorer.

Take a look at Free Software Directory from this site we can Download scripts and software including freeware, shareware, demoware, trial ware, java scripts and commercial software from the Free Software Directory.

So i hope this helps all, in finding some advice on Java.

[muku]

[Valter]

I'm not really a fan of Java, considering. It seems to have random pitfalls that mess up my coding daily. I've been getting into C++ recently, and it seems to be a far more stable language.

[Dacke]

Hm. As far as I know C++ is pretty infamous for being quite unstable with lots of memory management problems, multiple ways of doing things and letting the programmer's mistakes go by unnoticed.

[Valter]

Well, I'm just getting into it. I don't know everything, I just know that I've been using Java for a while now, and it seems to have random inconsistencies here and there.

[Dacke]

You may experiencing that C++ is more forgiving. That can be a pretty nice thing for small projects but can often bug up bigger projects beyond recognicion if you aren't careful. A problem with stricter languages is that you have to think "right" for them to work, you have to think the java-way for things to fall into place. The benefit is that you usually get more stable end-products. Or so I've heard