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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperAudioCharging for work? How much? Sharing insights!
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Author Topic: Charging for work? How much? Sharing insights!  (Read 7658 times)
Majestic
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« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2013, 02:53:25 PM »

You take 5 hours on a 30second track?  Shocked

I know some game developers get their music from royalty-free libraries. If anything i would utilize both of these to try and make a living off music. Non-exclusive licensing AND contracts.

Licensing would probably bring in more contracts imho.
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Calum Bowen
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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2013, 04:31:13 PM »

5 hours for a 30 second track doesn't sound ludicrous to me at all. Not a dig at anyone, but I've found that the people that tend to make the best stuff (not just in music) are the people that pay attention to detail and paying attention to detail takes time; whereas amateurs tend to spend less time and give less attention to the small parts of their track. I think many people are capable of making a 30 second track in probably half an hour but that'd probably be a pretty shoddy and tiresome track. I think it's absolutely vital to pay attention to detail when you're working with loops as well because the more complex and the more intricate your track is, the less tiresome it'll be, the more small details people will notice upon repeat listens! That's just my theory. Anyway, that's kinda off-topic I guess.

I would imagine licensing doesn't really give you the same relationship as creating new stuff for people. I think it allows people to come across you but if i was a developer, I'd probably be more likely to suggest someone i've personally worked with in a creative way than someone I purchased stock music from. I guess it depends on what kinda project it is. I think licensing can suppliment your earnings nicely but the only indie game... or non-indie game I know of that is even moderately-successful and used licensed music was Braid (that was some really bloody nice music as well!). Pretty much every other title has been a combination of an active working composer and a dev making some wonderful dreams come true! Hahaha, i guess i'm just not that fond of the licensing route.

wait... what was the topic again?
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Majestic
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« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2013, 04:53:27 PM »

Sometimes simple music is the best too. Usually the track just flows out by itself for me..but i will admit the more time i spend on a track the better it sounds and the higher the quality.

Taking time to modulate pitch and volume puts my music on a whole other level

« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 06:02:03 PM by Majestic » Logged

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Calum Bowen
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« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2013, 02:28:28 AM »


I hear some guys are really eating good off of the licensing tip though. For me the income from licensing is really passive right now, but I think it will speed up especially this upcoming year.

Here's the testimonials from audiojungle

Quote
I get full creative freedom to release the type of work that I’m passionate about; there are no deadlines to meet, no client meetings, and no mandates to create work that I’m not interested in. Put simply, I get to share my own creative ideas with an entire marketplace of buyers who respect and appreciate my work.” – Epicera

“I’ve gained more exposure and clients in the past year than I have in the previous six years of my professional career. I’m making enough passive income a month to cover my mortgage and it’s afforded me to buy a new BMW M3. This is only the tip of the iceberg, the skies the limit to how much you can make!” – Contempoinc

“Joining the Envato community was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. Being able to earn money with what I love most is awesome of course, but having complete creative control over my projects makes it even better.” – Kriesi

I'd probably be a little careful of over-exaggerate'y testimonials like this. I just googled all these people and none of them seem to exist. I think there are a FEW people that may make okay money from it but they're just a few swimming in seas of tracks that are unknown and don't get bought. The whole thing kinda seems centred around generic'ness - making what is most generally desired in the least specific way that it could apply to as many clients as possible - that's the secret to success with it and it's kinda not that exhilarating in my view. All this said, I think I'd probably consider having a few tracks that i kinda make for fun and see how they do on various licensing sites.
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Level-Up-Audio
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« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2013, 04:40:26 AM »

Yes, for the type of music that I do, it takes typically about 5 hours to complete a 30-45 second music loop with around 6-10 instrument tracks.

I understand that for SOME composers it can take as little as 30 minutes to produce 30 seconds of music, but I would question the quality, complexity, and appropriateness of such a track. I can produce 30 seconds of music in 30 minutes if I wanted to. Any composer could. Loop a simple drum loop over and over, come up with a simple melody, simple backing chords, duplicate it a few times. Don't edit it. Don't automate it. Don't mix it. Voila. 30 seconds of generic under-produced music that does nothing to improve my reputation as a composer, and barely meets my client's needs. I don't know about any other composers here, but that is not my approach!

Here are just a few hurdles that may factor in to your 30 seconds of music taking MUCH longer than 30 minutes to conceive, execute, and deliver:

- The client requires the song to loop in on itself seamlessly. Problem? This immediately restricts what kind of track you can make (suddenly your ideas for a frilly fantastic open-ended intro and ending are SHOT, because they don't conform to a seamless looping structure). Now you have to scrap your idea that took you 15 minutes to come up with, and start from scratch.

- The clients requires music that is for a specific genre, let's say Pirate music. What kind of pirate music? Happy? Serious? Epic? Comedic? Neutral? Ok, now I need to come up with a melody that is ORIGINAL (ie, not a Pirates of the Caribbean rip-off), but still awesome, and has all the signifiers of a pirate song. These signifiers include: What historically and thematically appropriate instrumentation should I use? What key should it be in, and what intervals, chord changes, and groove should I emphasize to signify to the listener that this is indeed a Pirate-specific song, and not some generic orchestral stuff? All of these decisions take time, research, and planning in order to execute properly and at a high-quality.

- The client requires historical ancient chinese music fused with modern electronic elements, and orchestral elements as well. Hoo boy! Ok, I need to come up with a NON-annoying, NON-generic ancient Chinese melody, and then somehow fuse that with a fast electronic track, and then layer on some epic orchestral stuff on top. And make it sound good. Since I'm not a super-expert on ancient chinese music, rather than pick the first cheesy cliche melody that comes to my head and run with it, I would instead take 30 to 60 minutes and research the theme thoroughly, see what my options are for production style references, and THEN start composing. Simply taking the extra time and effort to research or plan your approach is super important in my opinion, whether you bill your client for this time or not (I do).

- The client wants a very complex, active, and fast-paced orchestral arrangement to suit the battle scenes in his game. Problems? Very simply put, it simply takes MORE TIME to sequence MORE NOTES. Duh! A 30 second music loop consisting of 4 instruments, all playing whole note, half note, and quarter note melodies (yawn) IS NOT THE SAME AS a 30 second music loop consisting of 10 instruments, all playing 8th, 16th, and 32nd note melodies. And that's just SEQUENCING the notes, I'm not even talking about automating/editing the velocities, and other MIDI parameters, of EVERY NOTE in your track, so that your track breathes and isn't stale and lifeless.

- The client wants the SFX in the game to harmonize or be in the same key at least, as the music. The SFX have to be harmonious with the music and not jarring in any way. Problem? Depending on how 'harmonious' the client wants these two elements to be, it can be something of a minor struggle to compose music with this restriction. Suddenly your amazing composition doesn't quite jive as well as you want with the sound effects you've created.


Just based on those observations alone, I am still struggling to see how a typical music composer can compose/perform/edit/mix/master a high-quality, moderately complex 30 second music loop in 30 minutes, from conception, to delivery. Music can be a complex beast. Different key signatures, tempos, time signatures. Multiply that by the operations carried out by your DAW (every click, every drag, every slide, every render, every playback, every record pass, every thing!). And this is all assuming that your brain is pumping out ideas at the same speed that your hands can execute those ideas on screen (which rarely happens). That's a lot of mouse-clicks, folks. You can only click your mouse so many times in 30 minutes.

Am I alone here? Or is every music composer except myself capable of making 30 seconds of awesome music in 30 minutes? Am I missing something? Is there a speed-composing book I should be reading? Tongue

« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 05:34:47 AM by Level-Up-Audio » Logged

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Calum Bowen
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« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2013, 06:41:47 AM »

Am I alone here? Or is every music composer except myself capable of making 30 seconds of awesome music in 30 minutes? Am I missing something? Is there a speed-composing book I should be reading? Tongue

i wouldn't worry andrew! I think you're on the right side of the fence!

Anyway, back to charging for work! It's a tricky business, huh! Definitely a shit ton of variables in the project itself, the composer's financial situation, current workload, type of music etc. etc. etc.
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Kyle Preston
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« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2014, 12:01:58 PM »

This thread has so much great info in it, and thank you Chris for sharing your awesome spread sheet! I love how transparent everyone has been with their info.

As a practical matter, I was wondering how some of the composers/sound designers actually draw up their contracts on here.  Do you just look at other examples and copy and paste with minor alterations, do you type it up from scratch in notepad, do you have a template you downloaded somewhere, do you have a lawyer/accountant?  I recently discovered ShakeLaw but am unable to utilize it as it's only on iPad/iPhone currently; it's said to be a solid source for us freelancers.

There are some great example contracts in Aaron Mark's book and some great practical advice in Winifred Phillips's book. One of my takeaways from Aaron's book was to not be so timid about negotiating money with clients, something I still constantly fail at.  I can't remember the exact phrase, but there was a quote in it I loved, something along the lines of "Don't you want to be able to make enough money to buy the tools that will help you craft the beautiful music you know you can make. That music deserves to be heard."
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rj
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« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2014, 03:34:09 AM »

30 minutes for 30 seconds of near-final-quality music is nothing difficult for high-quality music because the first 30 seconds is the core idea, the simple hook, melody, the intro. there's nothing to it, even if you're making detailed custom work on the production.

filling out the rest and mixing the whole fucker can take dozens of dozens of hours, though.

that's how my process is, at least, and people tell me i don't make things like other people. so.

i should charge more. i charge 20 an hour, which is way low. unfortunately, it's way high by the standards of most who hire freelancers, and unfortunately, i love on freelance right now, so i can't be super fucking choosy. so whatever, whatever.

i'd like to double that rate in the next year hopefully
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Lauchsuppe
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« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2014, 07:55:53 AM »

You charge 20 per hour you work in freelance? How does this work? I mean, do you give an estimated calculation beforehand? Isn't that impractical for the person hiring you? How come you chose this method over others (e.g. charging per minute of finished music or per track)? I'm genuinely curious.
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rj
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« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2014, 08:09:34 AM »

of course i give an estimate beforehand; it would be ridiculous not to do that! it's not impractical in the least for a client, either, as i keep very detailed timesheets with screencaps of my work files attached whenever possible. i also work to a budget ceiling; say, for instance, that a client wants to pay no more than 200 dollars. i'd work ten hours, finish out what i could as best as possible (meaning the full skeleton of the work even if there are production tweaks i'd rather add) and send them that, with their own option to pay more if they want more polish. before that point, i'd send a draft every two hours so that they know the time is being spent well.

this method is the best one for the simple reason that it treats everything i make equally. charging per minute/second is problematic because some minutes/seconds take longer to make than other ones (an ambient synth trail for ten seconds is nothing but a detailed drum break could be an hour or more depending); this means it's fairer to both me and the client as there's no chance of me artificially ballooning the length and there's no chance of me being underpaid for complicated short work. it also means that revisions are zero percent an issue.

i occasionally do a a flat rate if the client insists; when i do it's based on an estimate from my hourly. I take that estimate, charge less than that, and ask for a revenue share in addition; that will work out, in the end, to the same deal.
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