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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralKickstarter supporters are suckers.
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Capntastic
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« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2012, 01:28:15 PM »

+interest, +dividends?
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gggfhfdh
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« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2012, 01:35:56 PM »

he might start claiming fraud, you better give him what he deserves before he makes YOU look like a sucker
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moi
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« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2012, 01:37:03 PM »

oh wow, you really think those $5 were not from pompi himself?
 oh you guys...
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2012, 01:50:39 PM »

Also, all the people who preach me that thinking about profit is evil\non indie\non artistic.
Unless you give all your games for free and don't ask for any donations, don't preach me about thinking of making a profit of a game. It makes you look hypocritical and dumb.

The whole "I am pretending to not making games for the money, though I secretly hope that if I make the game I want to make money will follow in abundance" BS.

i want to say something about this which you may be missing:

there are multiple values at play here. saying that someone values, for example, the freedom to make the types of games they want and the joy of creation more than money does not mean that they *don't* value money, it just means that they value something else more than money (because if they were *exclusively* after money, they'd work as programmers for someone else and make even more money)

in other words, think of it like this

[indie game developer 1, the typical indie game developer]
creative freedom: A-
money: B

[indie game developer 2, the casual game developer]
money: A
creative freedom: C

[indie game developer 3, the hobbyist]
creative freedom: A
money: F

so what i mean is, it's not a simple either-or the way your post is painting it
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moi
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« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2012, 03:10:51 PM »

that was a masterful deomnstration Gentleman
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« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2012, 03:43:44 PM »

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The whole "I am pretending to not making games for the money, though I secretly hope that if I make the game I want to make money will follow in abundance" BS.

Wow, I renounce everything I've said. You compel me. The mindset behind ,"I want be able to live off doing something I love" and, "I want to make money" is exactly the same. How could I have been so blind?
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J-Snake
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« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2012, 04:06:39 PM »

So for me it comes down to the following question:

Someone is capable and willing to make a game thousends of people are waiting for. But money is the only bottleneck. Are you going to save your money and avoid it from ever happening or are you willing to invest a bit and increase the chance of being rewarded with a game you might enjoy for the rest of your life.

So potentially a good thing. Only figuring out someone is "capable" and "willing" is the problem.
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« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2012, 04:20:15 PM »

If the developer is capable, experienced, and knows what theyre doing and the only bottleneck is money, they can take out a business loan.

Taking out a bank loan for anything is a huge risk, especially if you don't know if your product is going to be able to pay it back. Being forced to pay the bank back is also a huge incentive to actually get shit done and push a high quality game that will sell loads of units.

What kickstarter does is completely relieves the developer of that burden of risk, then breaks that it down into a few thousand parts and and redistributes that risk to the consumers who donate to the project.

Now that the developer is relieved of that huge risk, their only incentive to actually deliver a high quality game is completely gone and only incentives are the few promises they make on their kickstarter page, and we all know quite well how much weight a promise carries in the video game industry.

Completely disregarding people who are consciously creating scams on kickstarter, I think the biggest problem we're going to see is developers pushing out partially completed, low quality products.
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Capntastic
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« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2012, 04:24:26 PM »

their only incentive to actually deliver a high quality game is completely gone

Really?  You keep getting tripped up on this point.  Again, people don't take on creative projects just to "make money".
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zalzane
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« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2012, 04:27:01 PM »

their only incentive to actually deliver a high quality game is completely gone

Really?  You keep getting tripped up on this point.  Again, people don't take on creative projects just to "make money".

Of course, everyone wants to make a cool game, including myself.

Exactly how many cool games have you completed? How many have I completed? How many have kickstarter project developers completed of the scope they discuss on their pages?

Personally, I couldn't tell you how many games I've started over the past 5 years telling myself "this will finally be the one I finish" in full confidence, and of course we all know how that ends up.

Starting a project as a creative endeavor and finishing+shipping it are very very different, especially when there's a dozen grand of your customer's money involved.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2012, 04:30:36 PM »

I think the biggest problem we're going to see is developers pushing out partially completed, low quality products.
That's a tough one. How do you think about that:

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Capntastic
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« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2012, 04:35:07 PM »

Of course, everyone wants to make a cool game, including myself.

Exactly how many cool games have you completed? How many have I completed? How many have kickstarter project developers completed of the scope they discuss on their pages?

Personally, I couldn't tell you how many games I've started over the past 5 years telling myself "this will finally be the one I finish" in full confidence, and of course we all know how that ends up.

Starting a project as a creative endeavor and finishing+shipping it are very very different, especially when there's a dozen grand of your customer's money involved.

Your inability to complete a game has nothing to do with Kickstarter.  Kickstarter, as a whole, which again is not just for games.  I have several books and products on my shelf and desk that originated on Kickstarter.  It's not a total money-sink.

Even then, that has nothing to do with your assertion that wealth is the only incentive someone would have to complete a thing.
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zalzane
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« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2012, 04:50:27 PM »

That's a tough one. How do you think about that:



I spent a couple minutes exploring their website.

Here's a short of risks these guys appear to have taken:
-They've got 8 fulltime developers who are being paid a salary
-They have an office

There's probably one of two scenarios going on here: either their founder is blowing loads of money paying the bills to fund the company, or they've got some angel investors who have equity in the company.

In either scenario, someone over there is taking a risk, and whoever it is blowing a few hundred thou to pay those bills is going to do their damnest to make sure that it doesn't fail.

These guys seem to be much much better off than 90% of the kickstarter projects I've seen.


Quote
Even then, that has nothing to do with your assertion that wealth is the only incentive someone would have to complete a thing.
Damn straight it does. People start projects for all sorts of things every single day, video games, software, all sorts of shit. Exactly how many of those projects do you think are ever finished? Assuming the only incentive is creative, then very very few of those projects will  ever be completed. Just look at your own hobby projects that you've created over the years, exactly how many of those have you finished to the point where you would be able to ship them?

Now what's the difference between one of those hobby projects and kickstarter? A kickstarter project is motivated by creativity just like the hobby project, and thanks to kickstarter funding, money isn't an issue, and the developer never has to pay it back. Absolutely nothing separates hobby projects from a fully funded kickstarter in terms of motivation, except a few half-assed promises to some people on the internet.

Over the next few years we'll see this effect come to fruition, developers will start to get bored of developing their kickstarter projects, just like they would with hobby projects. Updates will start to slow down, and eventually they will stop. The best part is that by the time the developers get bored and drop the project, many of the original kickstarter donators will have completely forgotten about the project all together.

Of course this won't happen with every developer, I have no doubt in my mind that some will pull through and publish their game in the long run. However, I highly doubt that will be the case for most independent projects.
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Capntastic
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« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2012, 04:54:22 PM »

Ah yes the "I think this will happen" school of thought.
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« Reply #74 on: November 18, 2012, 04:57:01 PM »

When (I guess its really if) a game that was funded through kickstarter is completed, they still have a product that they can go and sell. While people who helped fund it do get a copy/exclusive goodies, they do not exclusively distribute it to funders. Therefore, there is still an "incentive" to make the best game that you can even if you disregard that most of these people do have a legitimate interest in video games and do have non financial motives.

On a side note, zalzane, I definitely feel your pain when it comes to starting things I don't finish. But some people are simply better than me at it and I have come to accept that I am not everybody

Also,I love Paul Eres' little breakdown of motivations/freedoms/money. It's simple but actually rings pretty true.
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« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2012, 04:59:17 PM »

kickstarter would be great if people were a little more critical in what projects they back.
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« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2012, 05:02:27 PM »

If the developer is capable, experienced, and knows what theyre doing and the only bottleneck is money, they can take out a business loan.

Taking out a bank loan for anything is a huge risk, especially if you don't know if your product is going to be able to pay it back. Being forced to pay the bank back is also a huge incentive to actually get shit done and push a high quality game that will sell loads of units.

What kickstarter does is completely relieves the developer of that burden of risk, then breaks that it down into a few thousand parts and and redistributes that risk to the consumers who donate to the project.

Now that the developer is relieved of that huge risk, their only incentive to actually deliver a high quality game is completely gone and only incentives are the few promises they make on their kickstarter page, and we all know quite well how much weight a promise carries in the video game industry.

Completely disregarding people who are consciously creating scams on kickstarter, I think the biggest problem we're going to see is developers pushing out partially completed, low quality products.

I mostly agree with what you are saying, but getting a business loan is considerably easier said than done. Aside from that though, KS does something a bank loan does not: it proves out the viability of what you are doing. If you put up a KS and it doesn't get funded it's probably due to either: the market not wanting the product or the market wanting it but deeming your proposal fallible/suspect. That's a pretty powerful tool for creators.
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2012, 05:14:14 PM »

apparently pompipompi is a sociopath who hates charity
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The Monster King
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« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2012, 01:24:56 AM »

apparently pompipompi is a sociopath

no????
NO????????????
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moi
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« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2012, 07:27:03 AM »

I think every tigsource forumer is either a sociopath or a social whore( hipster)
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