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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperArt (Moderator: JWK5)Is Poser worth buying?
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Hajo
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« on: September 22, 2008, 12:50:42 AM »

I really seem to suck at modeling humans and animals, even more at animating them.

I've been trying several freeware modellers/renderers and lately Blender as a big and renowned package, but at best I'm very slow with it and still only produce inferior results.

While looking for help I came across Poser, which seems easy to use and at least from what I heard gives very nice results. So far I tried to get away with free tools, and so I hesitate to actually buy Poser.

What do you think, is it worth buying? Are the good and free alternatives?
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deadeye
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2008, 01:23:17 AM »

Content Paradise was giving away Poser 5 for free a couple years ago (not any more) and I picked it up then.  It's fun for dicking around with, but I wouldn't ever use anything made in Poser as a game asset.

That is, if that's what you're planning on doing.
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Powergloved Andy
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2008, 01:43:44 AM »

I've never been able to use Poser effectively. Like deadeye said, It's fun to dick around with, but I don't know about much else.

The only thing similar and free that I can think of is MakeHuman.

http://www.makehuman.org/blog/index.php

I don't know about using it as models for games though.
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Hajo
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2008, 02:00:57 AM »

@deadeye

I missed the free download back then, just read about it on the web way later.

Yes, I'm unhappy with my current player character graphics, and trying to make better ones since a while, but to no avail. So definitely the idea was to get Poser and see if I can achieve better results with that. Actually the idea was risen when one or two people in another game development forum posted their player character graphics, which seemed impressive, and it turned out that they were using Poser to make those.

Why do you say "I wouldn't ever use anything made in Poser as a game asset". Is the quality too bad, or are there legal restrictions or something else?

@Powergloved Andy:

MakeHuman looks very interesting, that you for the link. I'm currently downloading and will try it once it's installed here. Guessing from the screenshots it looks like being good enough for my needs. Thank you very much for the link Smiley
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deadeye
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2008, 02:58:45 AM »

I've never been able to use Poser effectively. Like deadeye said, It's fun to dick around with, but I don't know about much else.

I've actually seen some pretty impressive, professional looking renders with Poser.  Of course, they weren't with default models and props.  And I used it myself once for a school project where we had to do sound design on an animatic.  Since it was a sound design class we could use whatever we wanted to make the images.  I just whipped up some quick poses and threw the sketch render on them, worked pretty well.

Mostly though this is what I think of when I hear the word Poser:


Why do you say "I wouldn't ever use anything made in Poser as a game asset". Is the quality too bad, or are there legal restrictions or something else?

No, no legal restrictions if you actually own it.  I remember there were those terrible "Text the word JOKE to 6523465" tv commercials that used default Poser cartoon models.  Ugh.  But hey, they had every right to use them I guess.

It's just that if you make your stuff in Poser, it won't have any, I don't know... soul, I guess.  It's like fancy clipart for 3D.

If you're coding a project and can't model, then maybe find someone who's willing to help you out with the art.  Or you could just keep practicing.  It's important to have a good knowledge of anatomy when modeling human figures.  You could try checking out Derek's figure drawing thread in Art and Design (Edit: er, yeah... this one).

Another alternative is to go very low-poly and make box people.  Look at Darwinia... it's got little stick figure people in 3D.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 03:11:10 AM by deadeye » Logged

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Hajo
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2008, 05:03:04 AM »

I have been toying around a bit with MakeHuman now and I think it's good enough for my needs to render and animate humans. Easy enough to get a grasp of how it works within a few minutes, and flexible enough that I think it will cover all my needs, except for rendering clothes.

Stick figures and box people - I'm also pondering about simpler, non-human or only remotely-human avatars, that might fit into my project, and which I can create and handle more easily. But that was not the scope of my question, I was primarily looking for remedies with my woes to model and pose human figures.

Thank you for the link to the gesture drawing thread. It's always good to have new input, but my basic problem is laziness in practicing, and there helps no anatomy and figure drawing books - well they help if I actually get to practicing.


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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2008, 11:18:46 AM »

Poser is one of those programs where if you use it, people will instantly recognize anything you make in it as being from Poser... and then may or may not make fun of it because of that.
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dmoonfire
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2008, 12:17:19 PM »

Also it depends on the models you use. I know the Daz3D stuff, though for poser, you can't use in a game as a model, but you can as a picture. That and you probably don't want Victoria 3 as a game model, given the sheer number of triangles.
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moi
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2008, 01:25:40 PM »

Poser is one of those programs where if you use it, people will instantly recognize anything you make in it as being from Poser... and then may or may not make fun of it because of that.
Yes there's something with poser that makes its characetrs instantly recognizable, don't know why.
That said Poser is an excellent quality game, and after all you can tweak all the characteristics of the characters, the problem is that poser creators don't modify enough characteristics in order to make their creations unique, it's the same problem with all creation tools (Bryce is another example, you can make very non-bryce pictures if you really take the time to modify all the parameters).

But really, you'll always have better results by trying to draw the characters yourself.
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deadeye
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2008, 06:49:01 PM »

Poser is one of those programs where if you use it, people will instantly recognize anything you make in it as being from Poser... and then may or may not make fun of it because of that.

Yeah, that too.

Also, is anyone else looking at the Makehuman examples and thinking they're kinda... bad?  Not only is the topology kinda crappy but the overall look of models is just, I dunno, off somehow.  The eyes especially really bug me.
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Souseiseki
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2008, 09:28:52 PM »

Poser is the only creative product title that I know of that describes its target audience.
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2008, 11:06:01 PM »

Quote
Is Poser worth buying?

TL;DR:  NO.
(IMHO)
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2008, 11:24:59 PM »

Poser is one of those programs where if you use it, people will instantly recognize anything you make in it as being from Poser... and then may or may not make fun of it because of that.

Exactly. I don't recommend using it for this reason. But that's not to say a game can't be good if it uses them -- Kudos (a shareware game by Cliff Harris) famously uses Poser models, but because his audiences is casual and unlikely to be familiar with Poser I guess it's not a problem for him. I'd stay away myself, though, especially if you want your game to have a unique style.
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Hajo
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2008, 12:10:52 AM »

Poser is one of those programs where if you use it, people will instantly recognize anything you make in it as being from Poser... and then may or may not make fun of it because of that.

I saw that happening with an RPG engine from someone. While I thought it's looking good, some people soon told "Those are just stock poser models". They didn't made fun of the creator, but it was clear that they didn't value the models very highly.

Also, is anyone else looking at the Makehuman examples and thinking they're kinda... bad?  Not only is the topology kinda crappy but the overall look of models is just, I dunno, off somehow.

I think this is because they try to merge male and female shapes in one toon, and then let parameters decide how it turns out. After some more experimentation I decided that I still won't get better results with it than I already have, and that I'm better off to touch up my existing graphics.

But overall I like the MakeHuman project idea. They seem to work on a new version, with a bigger character library. So I'll keep an eye on it, and maybe make use of it in a future project.

Thanks all for the feedback! Might have saved me some money, at least gave a good impression of the pros and cons of using Poser.
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Powergloved Andy
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2008, 02:12:43 AM »

Everybody wants a quick solution to 3D character rendering that Poser makes a ton of money, specially now with the anime group of kids and Content Paradise releasing anime styles and themes. But for some people who don't have the time or the resources it's a good thing, I suppose.

People don't realize how much better using something like Maya or Lightwave can makes your overall project look amazing. Although I'll admit 3D modeling is very intimidating to beginners. But, as soon as you get the basics everything just "clicks" and becomes second nature. Hell, I know people who aren't artistically blessed at ALL and are still able to make amazing models from scratch.

I know this is kinda off-topic, I was just saying.
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dmoonfire
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2008, 05:31:12 AM »

There is something enjoyable about having a relatively simple dress-up sandbox and posing tool. For what it works, and even if most people know the Poser models and positions by heart, it does have that low entry requirement for just having fun. Both me and my wife happen to enjoy playing around with the program, just to put them in positions and not have to figure out how to create a person from scratch; something I still haven't figured out how to do well.

But, like all graphic tools, it takes a lot to make it look good. Ditto with Blender (my modeler of choice), MakeHuman (which I still love and use), and everything else.
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Powergloved Andy
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2008, 06:16:33 AM »

...not to meantion Poser is great for posing uncomfortable sexual situations because genitalia is included with models  :D :D :D :D
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dmoonfire
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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2008, 06:19:31 AM »

...not to meantion Poser is great for posing uncomfortable sexual situations because genitalia is included with models  :D :D :D :D

"Both me and my wife happen to enjoy playing around with the program..."
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Mitchard
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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2008, 08:07:20 AM »

Am I correct in assuming that poser is just a tool for posing and rendering pre-made or purchased models made by other people?

According to wikipedia

Quote
There is now a cottage industry of commercial artists and fine artists who create original artwork (illustrations) of human figures using Poser. Previously, drawing realistic human figures was both difficult and very time consuming. Now over 200,000 artists create everything from magazine covers, print advertising and product illustrations using Poser.

Am I missing something here? 'Fine artists'? This sounds completely artistically bankrupt, how could anybody consider this illustration?

Not to mention that pretty much everything I've seen made in poser looks really creepy.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 10:36:11 AM by Mitchard » Logged
dmoonfire
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« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2008, 11:33:42 AM »

The original Poser was just a body posing tool with a very plain model. It gave you the flow (see the Gesture Drawing homework page), shape, and volume stuff, but it wasn't really fancy. Kind of like those wooden dolls you can pose and draw.

Then people wanted a bit more, like make the figure fatter or change the shape and see how it works, or play around with it. And different rendering options so it was more than just a stick figure (or whatever it originally was). From there, it kind of got a life of its own.

The Poser we see now came from when the program became less of a life drawing guide and a tool to create results directly. It does a lot more than its original purpose and basically created an entire industry around it (Daz3d and other sites) because it was so easy to throw together some naked models and have them bang around. Okay, there are other purposeses, but you know that is what most people do at first.

That is one reason the models in Poser are off scale by an obscene amount, backwards compatibility with the original hacked-together application. But, the original really was for "fine artists" because they used it as a tool, then used it to guide their hand drawings.
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