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[Muz]

how did this thread get to 7 pages? I thought the question was answered when someone said that they should have unrealistically thin waists + big boobs.

I guess if people want to make fanservice, it's up to them. Artistic freedom and all. But don't expect it to go mainstream.

[SundownKid]

I miss the days when Samus was an amazon...  Just look at how fucking serviceable she is here.  As if the cross section of her suit wasn't just awesome enough.  Seems like back in the day Western representation of her often framed her as a fucking powerhouse.  There's also some early manga stuff of her that paints her as pretty flighty that was made by Nintendo, but I feel like referencing that is like me bringing up the Super Mario Bros. Super Show to talk about Princess Peach's characterization.  I think that stuff was just out of character laughs.  But I'm pretty sure the second image was canon at some point, and the first image is from an ad but it just seems to drive home how people used to think of her.

That seems to be the "American" interpretation of Samus, while the Japanese version just devolved through pandering to the otaku demographic until she became a milquetoast in Metroid: Other M. Remember that in Metroid Prime, Samus looked pretty much the same as that image (though in Metroid Prime 3, she became a lot younger-looking and more sexualized, which even pissed me off because I liked Metroid Prime so much).

The truth is that Samus should really look like the female version of John-117, considering that she was genetically enhanced with alien DNA and not just a regular girl stuck into the power suit.

[gimymblert]

"Pitch yours" can never be answered as long you have proposition, there was a slight dismissal derailment, but it's about thinking about it, not actually finding a definite answer.

[kiddRaddical]

In my opinion, characters' visual designs should either tell their story (if you're going for a legit story) or just be interesting to look at (where there is no "real" story, ie Sonic/Mario/etc).

I see no reason why it can't be both - character design doesn't have to be realistic to tell a story.

As far as sexual attractiveness, I don't understand why so many games bend over backwards to make the female leads do the same (tangentially-related: look up "the Hawkyye initiative" to see what I mean).

Considering a vast amount of game devs are male, it makes sense that something like this would happen even if the audience isn't. I don't think you can truly have a stylized, yet equal-opportunity game without it getting boring once and a while - both men and women desire highly sexualized characters sometimes.

Guess I mis-spoke (typed?):

I don't think there's anything wrong with making attractive characters (honestly, who wants to be ugly), I just think a lot of media in general tries to hard to play the "babe" card.

Also, 'realism' isn't my shtick; 'believability' is more important IMO. To use action-RPG's as an example, why do so many female 'warrior' characters wear armor that covers virtually NOTHING? I understand that guys like girls, and (sadly) a lot of games are "made for guys", but this scenario doesn't even make sense within the premise of the game.

My main gripe is more so at (what I see as) lazy character design: "iT's uh GURL, leh's make hur NAKIE!11". I'm not saying everything should be realistic (far from it), I just think one should design a female character as a character first, and then a female. 

btw: By "interesting to look at", I meant in an abstract way (eg, Kirby. Not much going on in the lore deptartment). Didn't want anyone getting the wrong idea 

[SundownKid]

Also, 'realism' isn't my shtick; 'believability' is more important IMO. To use action-RPG's as an example, why do so many female 'warrior' characters wear armor that covers virtually NOTHING? I understand that guys like girls, and (sadly) a lot of games are "made for guys", but this scenario doesn't even make sense within the premise of the game.

My main gripe is more so at (what I see as) lazy character design: "iT's uh GURL, leh's make hur NAKIE!11". I'm not saying everything should be realistic (far from it), I just think one should design a female character as a character first, and then a female.  

btw: By "interesting to look at", I meant in an abstract way (eg, Kirby. Not much going on in the lore deptartment). Didn't want anyone getting the wrong idea  

I'm not a fan of gratuitously ridiculous character design either, I feel like if you really want to show a female character's skin, you can do it by giving her a change of clothes, TEMPORARILY.

However, considering so many of these fantasy settings use magic powers and the like, it's pretty easy to handwave people not having armor. Most of the party uses casual clothing in battle in jRPGs, and it can be explained away by magical force fields and inhuman reflexes. The setting isn't very believable, and if all female characters wore realistic armor, Dark Souls-style, there wouldn't be very much interest from the female side either.

[gimymblert]

So why male do get heavy armor if "a wizard did it" for female?

[flowerthief]

I miss the days when gender consciousness didn't matter in a Metroid game...and when Metroid games were fun.

[Muz]

Found a great female character blog:
http://girl-wonder.org/dimestoredames/

Mostly comics, but the writing/art works for games too.

[Sharkoss]

I miss the days when gender consciousness didn't matter in a Metroid game...and when Metroid games were fun.

Metroid was always cheesecake.  The whole game is about getting Samus to strip to her space undies.

[ink.inc]

insofar as comics go, i really like the designs from Runaways (written by Brian K. Vaughan and illustrated by Adrian Alphona). alphona draws really great hair and facial expressions (ie not just pornface). also his characters change outfits at least once every chapter, so there's a ton of visual variety.

Nico Minoru, leader/den mother of the Runaways, a group of children whose parents are psychopathic supervillains hell-bent on destroying the world. The master of the Staff of One, a magical artifact that can cast most any spell, but only once.





Molly Hayes, provides the muscle to the aforementioned Runaways.




Gertrude Yorkes: the acerbic, witty one. wields a genetically modified dinosaur.

Runaways is a good read; self-aware and not above making fun of itself and the comic book medium in general.

EDIT: The best volumes of Runaways are the ones made by Vaughn/Alphona. The Whedon ones are good, but not great. And the ones that come after are just trash. Shame, really.

Y: The Last Man also has some pretty good female characters (as could be expected from a post apocalyptic series where every single organism with a Y chromosome simultaneously dies).

Agent 355: she does everything.

The important thing to note is that these characters are not flat. They are not just "pretty faces", nor are they "just" badasses. They are multidimensional. They don't exist to fill a quota. They are not defined by singular adjectives. They have personalities that extend beyond "chick with guns" or "chick with staff". And that's why they're interesting in my book.

[kiddRaddical]

...
The important thing to note is that these characters are not flat. They are not "just" badasses, and not just "pretty faces". They are multidimensional. They don't exist to fill a quota. They are not defined by singular adjectives. They have personalities that extend beyond "chick with guns" or "chick with staff". And that's why they're interesting in my book.

^THIS. Thank you, that's what I was getting at and entirely mis communicating. THESE are the kind of characters I'd like to see more of.

[ink.inc]

probably not this

What are you talking about? Blazer + miniskirt are full of wins!!! and Takanashi Rikka is cute beyond help!!!

to pretend that rikka is anything other than an attempt to elicit the furious erections of lolicons around the world is to commit a rather perverse dishonesty imho

[ink.inc]

"It's difficult. [My female protagonists] immediately become the subjects of lolicon gokko (play toy for Lolita Complex males). In a sense, if we want to depict someone who is affirmative to us, we have no choice but to make them attractive. But now, there are too many people who shamelessly depict [such protagonists] as if they just want [such girls] as pets, and things are escalating more and more."
    —Hayao Miyazaki, 1988 interview with Animage

[gimymblert]

NEW Compo: how to make unattractive character cool?
(hint there is already plenty)

[Muz]

Just focus on personality and abilities?

I don't think there's really any correlation between attractiveness and coolness. But when making the choice between creating an unattractive character or an attractive one, it's just easier to choose attractive characters.

A lot of "strong personality" characters often have their looks nerfed because they don't want to detract from the personality aspects. Tbh, I find a lot of female comic/video game characters unattractive, because they're always in skimpy outfits and have unrealistic proportions.

It's probably more difficult to make an attractive female cool, because attractiveness makes her sexualized. I mean you've probably got your Samus Aran, but I don't know if that counts, since her attractive side was introduced at the ending. Lara Croft is remembered for her boobs, not her adventures. And something like this gives a first impression of a shallow, fanservice character.

[SundownKid]

I don't think all sexualized characters are "uncool", just the ones where the outfits clash with their personality or make them into an exaggerated stereotype to justify said outfit. Vice-versa, an attractive character doesn't have to have skin-tight clothing to be attractive.

[gimymblert]

It's more about thinking differently, avoiding default mode that kills creativity despite what people says.

[Ben_Hurr]

... And something like this gives a first impression of a shallow, fanservice character.

"If only I had my clear lucite heels on, I could kill zombies faster! <3"

[Friend]

Although the core audience is considered to be men from 15 to 30, it is still wrong to say women are misrepresented in videogames, and that they are not accounted for audience-wise.

oh look it's wrong to say it because no actual reason.

Oh wait is... IT IS!!! OMG It's EVA! Lol! I don't normally comment on stuff here but this is just too good to let go. Dude, I actually get to see someone who is like, banned. AWESOM!

So do you, like, hate the oversexualization of females in the industry these days?

Where do you think it began?

Personally I think it either began with duke nukem or miss packman.

[HöllenKobold]

It's probably more difficult to make an attractive female cool, because attractiveness makes her sexualized. I mean you've probably got your Samus Aran, but I don't know if that counts, since her attractive side was introduced at the ending. Lara Croft is remembered for her boobs, not her adventures. And something like this gives a first impression of a shallow, fanservice character.

I think a problem with your examples, is that the latter was definitely intended as a shallow fanservice character. Because you know, Lolipop Chainsaw is the most obvious piece of exploitation trash. Suda being satirical, my ass. And Lara Croft's boobs are consistently flaunted in promotional material, and the proportions add focus to them. They weren't part of the original design and it shows.

basically neither of them were really trying
hell, suda was doing the opposite