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[Azure Lazuline]

I honestly think the best thing to do for a female character is just make it so it doesn't matter, and/or not bring attention to it. Metroid games are the prime example (hehe), where you usually know she's a girl but it doesn't actually matter, and maybe you get an attractive picture at the end but not much else. In Metroid Prime 1 she's not even that attractive when you finally get to see her face at the end.

In Copy Kitty, the protagonist is a catgirl, which already brings up a few warning flags, but it's pretty much irrelevant in the game. The biggest hint is probably her room (which you see only twice), but the only super-girly things are those bunnies. Some people who play the game are surprised when I call her "she" when discussing the game, because they never actually thought about it despite playing the game for hours.

I remember a similar situation in Gunstar Super Heroes, where Red is a girl but you only know that if you pay attention to the pronouns in the very cheesy cutscenes. Although she was apparently a dude in the original Japanese version...

Side note: you need cool female villains too. Female villains are usually even tackier and shallower than female heroes, since they're even more vulnerable to "this character is cool BECAUSE she's a girl, and that's unique and stuff" syndrome.

[Chromanoid]

tldr...
some good rl examples

[gimymblert]

[Muz]

It's probably more difficult to make an attractive female cool, because attractiveness makes her sexualized. I mean you've probably got your Samus Aran, but I don't know if that counts, since her attractive side was introduced at the ending. Lara Croft is remembered for her boobs, not her adventures. And something like this gives a first impression of a shallow, fanservice character.

I think a problem with your examples, is that the latter was definitely intended as a shallow fanservice character. Because you know, Lolipop Chainsaw is the most obvious piece of exploitation trash. Suda being satirical, my ass. And Lara Croft's boobs are consistently flaunted in promotional material, and the proportions add focus to them. They weren't part of the original design and it shows.

basically neither of them were really trying
hell, suda was doing the opposite

That's just it. How do you make a fanservice character into something you can relate with? How could anyone change Lara Croft from video game pinup girl into a politician? (without it being a parody)

I actually had a character with a 'disability' of having big boobs in a RPI MUD once, to prove just how difficult it was to create sexy, respected characters. People assumed she was a character created for cybersex; some wouldn't give her proper military training because they (OOC) assumed she wouldn't stick around the game. Whereas almost every week, someone tried to get a one-night stand out of her. The rest assumed she was one of those cliche sexy assassin types who would get men naked and then kill them. She was just a regular grunt mercenary with a spear. The sex appeal thing actually pushed her out of the 'cool' category, because everyone assumed that she got free stuff from sleeping with others or teasing them.

Whereas when you create someone who looks like Margaret Thatcher, Ellen Ripley, or some chubby dwarven female, everyone will automatically assume that she's some elite warrior. How do you create a female character who comes on stage as a bombshell, but somehow gets the respect of everyone? I guess Xena is a decent example of a warrior who is sexy, and still respectable. Xena's underdressed and there's tons of fanservice, but she somehow gets away with poor armor since many of her moves rely on agility.

[randomnine]

If you present your sexual characteristics as a central part of your appearance, yeah, people are likely to think you're interested in and motivated by sex. (Though plenty of men tend to assume women are anyway.)

Sexy fanservice is about objectifying and conveying submissiveness, weakness, vulnerability and a primary interest in sex: it says to the viewer "you could own me". When it's a game protagonist it goes even further - it turns the protagonist into an object whose every move you control rather than an avatar you inhabit.

If you want to create a respectable fanservice character you're basically saying you want the viewer to look up to them and look down on them at the same time. Lay on both thickly and you just end up with an unbelievable character, like a 17-year old army general and expert sniper with her arse hanging out who cleans guns and works out in her spare time and doesn't understand the concept of personal space.

A few things which seem to cover both attractiveness and respectability are making characters smart (ie. witty) and capable.

[SundownKid]

A few things which seem to cover both attractiveness and respectability are making characters smart (ie. witty) and capable.

A sexy character could become more respectable by being assertive, but witty protagonists are kind of... overused? I would prefer a serious protagonist who was just focused on their job and didn't call attention to her sexy characteristics, someone more subtly attractive than outwardly bombastic.

[ClayB]

you can't really point to any game and say "there's a subtly attractive female right there"

the only one I can think of, shamefully, is maria from SH2, she's obviously SUPPOSED to be slutty with her outfit, but her actual features make her seem pretty real. i remember watching a short documentary on the making of SH2, and one character designer said he purposely gave her a slight tummy because the realness of her is what's supposed to tempt the player character.

a bad example i guess, but i honestly think if she didnt wear hooker clothes, you'd have your subtly attractive female right there. maybe not so subtle, but more subtle than lara croft

also, i think its insulting to think women would want to play as margret thatcher. interactive coal mining strike weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 

[baconman]

about the struggle between attractiveness, sexuality, and being taken seriously, especially in conjunction with every Fanmail episode requesting boobages.

The appeal of "sexy characters" is about appealing to the needs of the sexual appetite, which only seems to have results when respect is removed from the equation. Why would somebody seduce you for your time and attention, or your agreement or whatever, when they're somebody you respect and can get it just by asking you for it?

Personally, I think chick leads are better off WITHOUT having a "proper checklist," which will then threaten to make them all samey. But what really needs taken into account is that "women" are not all one cohesive thing. What a really good female lead should do is somewhat juxtapose a situation, and somewhat fit it.

Bayonetta works because she's "beastly beautiful" in a world of beautified beasts. Juliet works because she's a happy-go-lucky character in the usually-depressing/tense apocalypse setting. In fact, she's like the zombie-survival game equivalent of Duke Nukem, quippy one-liners included - her being cutesy or sexy does not stop her attitude from entering "genuine badass" territory, and having stars and rainbows instead of gore doesn't make the game any less visually stunning - the juxtaposition actually highlights it.

But then, games like these are just like Germaine, here. They're genuinely artistic and creative, but horny dipshits see nothing past the boobs, whether it's because they can't or simply choose not to.

Art and sex do not have to be mutually exclusive, either.

[sonjool]

Haven't read the entire thing but I just want to say, in terms of armors, I can't stand boob plates. I don't understand why that's a thing.

Also, the question that was posed seems to have a bias because it only asks what they should look like because looks is what matters right? As long as a character is well developed internally and their looks don't betray what they stand for as a character, then I think you would have a good female or male character. There are inherent differences between male and female but once you associate those traits as absolutes to the entire gender, then you're being narrow-minded.

[HöllenKobold]

In fact, she's like the zombie-survival game equivalent of Duke Nukem

But Duke Nukem is beyond the worst. He's just this nagger whose best lines are stolen from movies.

[Ben_Hurr]

So, what deep creative message is contained in Foamy the Squirrel, Bayonetta, and Lollipop chainsaw Baconman.

[baconman]

Germaine: Possibly a genuinely creative, deep writer. Very spiritual and inspired kind of person most of the time. HOWEVER. She's jigglicious, and this causes most people (even fans of Foamy) to see NOTHING past the T&A, like that's all she's for. (In spite of the ironic fact that it's exaggerated specifically to BE the point, so it kind of IS the point of her character.) She even goes so far as to uglify herself in every way you can think of - balding her hair, getting fat, whatever - and yet still remains sexualized every step of the way.

Did you learn *nothing* from the video?

Either way, she's entering the state where she's willing to own her jiggles; rather than allow other people's observations of her jiggles to own her. But that still doesn't get people to take her personality or character itself seriously. Because where there's jiggly, there's horny; and you can't have sex with a personality or talent however hard you try.

It's something many real artsy women deal with INCESSANTLY. Also, it's fucking IMPOSSIBLE to ignore the jiggly. Or even hit the pause button on our crotches. As a chick-loving guy, I can totally attest to this. We are half the problem.


Bayonetta is the problem-solver. A bit full of herself, sure; but she backs it up. She's practically a female equivalent of 007, just with a change of scenery. And face it, this isn't like Twilight or Dirty Harry, it's the kind of appeal that hits men and women equally; in a way that's sort of sexual but not limited by that. Also, have you seen the distinct sense of atmosphere and architecture that the game flaunts? The fact that you CAN see that past the jigglys speaks magnitudes in it's quality. (Also, I've only gotten about 25% of it done, it's still on my backlog of embarassment to finish.)

I already explained the one in Lollipop Chainsaw, and Bayonetta's is similar: sure, it's marketed and targeted with the jigglys; but the real delights in those games as creative expression comes from their nature of juxtaposition. Before them, who saw Angels as glowing beastys? Who saw rainbows flying out of zombies? And now after, who COULDN'T?


In respect to those two and Duke Nukem; I think the point is that while they can be assholey and full of themselves, being a "badass" is not an inherently bad thing. You wanna know what the big problem with gun control and "that shooting" was? The lack of a badass to step up and stop it; because it's something we've societally demonized into submission.

[s0]

You wanna know what the big problem with gun control and "that shooting" was? The lack of a badass to step up and stop it; because it's something we've societally demonized into submission.

what

anyway i think lara croft is p much the very definition of a terrible fanservice character because sexuality doesn't even figure in the story of tomb raider. correct me if im wrong (memory's kinda fuzzy) but i don't think there are even male love interests or anything like that in TR so you can have her *all for yourself*.

i'm not going to elevate bayonetta to some sort of pedestal of vidyagame feminism, but i think a fanservice character that "talks back" is a step up from lara croft.

[Schoq]

Yeah that, and:

Before them, who saw angels as glowing beastys?

probably a lot of people since angels are often described as quite monstrous in the bible.


EDIT: this is getting a bit OT but, baconman, if you honestly think the problem with incidents of gun violence is that american society doesn't raise enough "badasses" (I hope not), I urge you to read this http://www.alternet.org/gender/what-it-about-men-theyre-committing-these-horrible-massacres?paging=off

[ink.inc]

evangelion was all about giant angels destroying neo tokyo

[gimymblert]

@CA Sinclair
I disagree, TOMB RAIDER is the prototypical "done right". Consider the original bio, strong women exploring ancient tomb on her own, live as a british self sustain aristocrat, has lost her parent in a plane crash she travel in and had survive ALONE in the wild Himalayan being a child. She is more of the athletic type and dress fittingly with her function (being agile and all which the gameplay emphasize), not the usual bimbo or dominatrix nor the princess in distress. She was basically old school samus in realistic context (exploring strange world and shooting local wildlife).

Problems start with the ads that show her in suggestive poses and latter game increasing the breast (they weren't so big to start with). Not counting the multiple retcon that start to make no sense at all. She devolve into other M territories basically, which seems to be a fate to all strong female icons in game ...

[baconman]

^ Precisely. And yet, what do people see? The lips and boobs, and none of the character itself. That is the entire "Germaine argument" I'm talking about.

And yes, it is disgusting to see someone independent and adventurous get intrinsincally pussified, with no justification.

[gimymblert]

Well if they keep in tone with the game material instead of pimping her in the ads ...




This is what tomb raider was about (beware 90's cinematic greatness), It was, in tone, OOT with gun. Tits and gun is clearly not the focus here, you don't even think about it. Pretty much like ripley in alien is not define by tits.

However the problem was never sexyness in the first place, it was about it being not only the default but also the "goto" design. The solution is not more badass but more diversity and representation (for all character too). That was the intent of this thread to show everyone's different solution and vision.

Everything badass is equally problematic for any character.