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[starsrift]

2. Your target market (if your target is woman, it's better if she's fully clothed, if the target market is guys then it's better if she shows some skin, if your target market is both woman and guys then .. uh ... good luck with it XD - it can be done but be prepared for some hair pulling moments, especially when you and your team creating the protagonist's personality & story)

This is a horrible fallacy. Many very popular games among men have male protagonists or nonhuman protagonists, meaning that it's bullshit.

Unless we're going the Madonna route of everyone is bi and it's only a matter of degree.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i think you mean generalization, not fallacy

[starsrift]

I was not indicating a formal logical fallacy, just a run of the mill, conversational fallacy. I'm pretty sure I meant what I wrote, thanks Eres.

[Erobotan]

This is a horrible fallacy. Many very popular games among men have male protagonists or nonhuman protagonists, meaning that it's bullshit.

Unless we're going the Madonna route of everyone is bi and it's only a matter of degree.

well, yeah, but I thought the thread is specifically talking about female lead? That's why I wrote what I wrote ...

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I was not indicating a formal logical fallacy, just a run of the mill, conversational fallacy. I'm pretty sure I meant what I wrote, thanks Eres.

i'm not sure what you mean here -- what's a "conversational fallacy"? or more specifically, what's a horrible one?

in any case, the quote you were objecting to seems generally true even if there are a lot of exceptions. the only horrible thing about it to me is that it's generally true that the females in games targeted towards men tend to be sexualized

as a thought, look at that picture of the olympic women again. they vary in body type very greatly, but the one thing they all have in common is that none of them has huge breasts

[feminazi]

I vote for Hanasaki Tsubomi from Heartcatch Precure!!! http://prettycure.wikia.com/wiki/Hanasaki_Tsubomi

It was about raising issue about the TRAP, indies was also made by speaking up and making huge splash, that's what is happening with women in game too. What this kickstarter does is the same as what tigsource (and co) has done.

That's cool, but you guys really should stop at around 15k-ish max instead of going crazy and reach 158k ... . I can create 10 high quality games with 158k budget. By high quality i mean along the lines of Recettear, Eternal Fighter Zero, Castlevania, Zelda GBA.

i'd give anita's kickstarter 158k if it means your avatar stops existing

[feminazi]

I was not indicating a formal logical fallacy, just a run of the mill, conversational fallacy. I'm pretty sure I meant what I wrote, thanks Eres.

i'm not sure what you mean here -- what's a "conversational fallacy"? or more specifically, what's a horrible one?

in any case, the quote you were objecting to seems generally true even if there are a lot of exceptions. the only horrible thing about it to me is that it's generally true that the females in games targeted towards men tend to be sexualized

as a thought, look at that picture of the olympic women again. they vary in body type very greatly, but the one thing they all have in common is that none of them has huge breasts

"if your target market is dude then it's better to show skin" could be bullshit like every target audience bullshit theories

[Rube]

like any woman you could see on the market, or on the streets, or in any part of real life.

Why? Male characters in video games or other fictional media don't look like guys you'd see on the street.

Video games don't need to be less demeaning toward women, they need to be more demeaning toward men. Truly, we could learn much from the Japanese.









Also, to stay vaguely on topic here's a pic of an awesome looking older female warrior.

[antoniodamala]

like any woman you could see on the market, or on the streets, or in any part of real life.

Why? Male characters in video games or other fictional media don't look like guys you'd see on the street.

Video games don't need to be less demeaning toward women, they need to be more demeaning toward men. Truly, we could learn much from the Japanese.

It already is demeaning to both men and women, in different ways. While woman are all about tits and butts, mens are all about muscles and ugly faces.

Also what i mean is that they must be exactly like normal people, but their references should be normal people, not these weird trends.

[Hythlodaeus]

Regarding the creation of female characters, here's a tip: disregard all recent controversies regarding female characters being objectified fanservice dolls. Do a character YOU enjoy, and don't feel pressured by what others tell you. Having characters obey / avoid pre-established pseudo-ethical guidelines, is perhaps the easiest way to ruin them from the beginning. You're never gonna be able to make everyone happy, so instead of being demanding based on other people's standards, try to be demanding with yourself until you create a character you feel truly satisified with.

Also don't take any opinions from themarysue seriously, in general. It's a terrible website. The name really does says it all, in this case.

[HöllenKobold]

You really ought to not focus on characters tailored to your taste. It's really going to show and make your characters flatter and less diverse because they're going to pander to a specific niche. Even if your story is tailored to an actual message, it's simply better to do your research or figure out how to make characters appealing without resorting to your own schema of what is cool. Unless your definition of cool is Takashi Mizutani.

[Wilson Saunders]

There is an easy of side stepping the pandering/realism image issue with female characters, don't show them. Karan S'jet of Homeworld was a disembodied voice though most of the game and a vaguely female silhouette in two cut scenes. Yet I cried when she told me my planet was destroyed and all that was left of my people were in cryio pods that were under attack. There are many games where the player's avatar is either not shown or not represented at the human level. Hiring a female voice actor to do your com chatter does not add much in the way of development cost and can set your game apart from the others.

[SundownKid]

All those sample women everyone posted can all be either criticized or supported for their design. Let's put Shanoa from Castlevania as an example:

Pros:
1) Strong willed
2) Wears armor
3) Equal in combat to the male supporting lead

Cons:
1) Wears hooker heels and shows some unrealistic leg and back skin
2) Obviously prettier and less muscular than a real vampire hunter would look

So, there is really no "correct" way to design a female character. They will all have pros and cons to their audience. And when you put it in those terms, no one really knows "was that female character horrifically scarred for plot reasons, or just to prove a point?"

If you want to make it ultra-realistic, it still doesn't remove you from potential criticism. Even a homely character like Alyx can be criticized for having a grungy outfit - it really doesn't make a difference. It just depends on your preferences, and your audience.

I really don't mind making an attractive female character, if it makes me like to work on the game more, then I'm not going to make her less attractive to send some sort of message. I dislike the "bro culture" just as much as anyone, but as long as said character is treated with respect, I see no problem with it. I don't think female gamers are turned off by attractive characters so much as needlessly objectified and gratuitous characters.

[feminazi]

Regarding the creation of female characters, here's a tip: disregard all recent controversies regarding female characters being objectified fanservice dolls. Do a character YOU enjoy, and don't feel pressured by what others tell you. Having characters obey / avoid pre-established pseudo-ethical guidelines, is perhaps the easiest way to ruin them from the beginning. You're never gonna be able to make everyone happy, so instead of being demanding based on other people's standards, try to be demanding with yourself until you create a character you feel truly satisified with.

Also don't take any opinions from themarysue seriously, in general. It's a terrible website. The name really does says it all, in this case.

considering the non existant thought process that goes into making offensive characters i'd rather not. also don't take any opinions from hythlodaeus seriously.

[Sharkoss]

Regarding the creation of female characters, here's a tip: disregard all recent controversies regarding female characters being objectified fanservice dolls. Do a character YOU enjoy, and don't feel pressured by what others tell you. Having characters obey / avoid pre-established pseudo-ethical guidelines, is perhaps the easiest way to ruin them from the beginning. You're never gonna be able to make everyone happy, so instead of being demanding based on other people's standards, try to be demanding with yourself until you create a character you feel truly satisified with.

This isn't even coherent, setting aside the half a dozen other red flags I'm getting here.  Sort it out and you might get a less dismissive reply.

[s0]

You really ought to not focus on characters tailored to your taste. It's really going to show and make your characters flatter and less diverse because they're going to pander to a specific niche. Even if your story is tailored to an actual message, it's simply better to do your research or figure out how to make characters appealing without resorting to your own schema of what is cool. Unless your definition of cool is Takashi Mizutani.

yup. i think the idea that there's one type of "ideal female lead" is a bit odd (maybe that's the point gimmy is trying to make?). i don't think characters can be "good" on their own, it's about the context of the story they exist in. if your story is about tough space space marines, make the protagonist a good tough space marine, if your story is about a janitor, make a good janitor etc.

maybe one of the problems videogames have is that people are too fixated on making characters they think look "cool" w/o thinking about context?

[starsrift]

in any case, the quote you were objecting to seems generally true even if there are a lot of exceptions.

How can you even write this with a straight face? The number of games with male leads outnumber the ones with female leads. In fact, with the notable exception of the Grand Theft Auto series and arguably WoW, none of the best-selling games of all time objectify women. Those aren't exceptions, those are the numbers, and therefore, the data. The rule, if you like.

Obviously, the objectification of women to sell games is a canard. It's not "exceptions" when the actual exceptions of games that objectify women to sell titles are only good sellers when they are otherwise good games.

[Sanojian]

I remember being struck with the look of female characters in Dark Age of Camelot.  They were attractive without being overly sexualized.  It was the first MMORPG in my memory to do this and I think it was the first MMORPG to be popular with female players.  Coincidence?

I am sure there are better examples than this but anyway...

[Hythlodaeus]

This isn't even coherent, setting aside the half a dozen other red flags I'm getting here.  Sort it out and you might get a less dismissive reply.

I merely meant to say it's best to ignore recent media controversies, and instead write a character that feels "good". They say good characters write themselves, and that was more or less the point I was trying to make. If you spend too much time thinking your character should obey to this or that so it wouldn't offend X or Y, you're far more bound to create a character that feels like an artificial construct, trying to pander to a specific niche audience, than something that feels actually good and natural. Some of my favourite video game characters are very unstereotypical, precisely because they are fruit of the unrestrained tastes and imagination of their creators, and that's the kind of thing I'd like to see more often. Sorry if I've insulted you in any way. 

[hanako]

If you spend too much time thinking your character should obey to this or that so it wouldn't offend X or Y, you're far more bound to create a character that feels like an artificial construct

This is true - trying to fixate on perfection will tie you in knots (partly because, as I keep saying, it is not possible for a single character to encompass all desires and avoid all negative implications).

It's still a good idea to at least get a brief glance at the weather of current controversies before you start to give you some warning if you're about to walk smack into a disaster you'd never considered. Many game developers seem a bit near-sighted about anything outside of their own small pool of interest, and honestly never imagined anyone would object.