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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignSo what should a proper female lead look like? Pitch yours
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Author Topic: So what should a proper female lead look like? Pitch yours  (Read 18176 times)
Schoq
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« Reply #80 on: December 11, 2012, 07:34:18 AM »

Now you're just making a strawman. I don't recall ever saying that all female characters should dress like strippers.
And I don't recall saying you did (nice strawman). I pointed out that you're defending the phenomenon (while having the gut to call avoiding doing this pandering!)

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The difference between this and a character written for a broader demographic group (in this case, both men and women who play videogames), is that you have more room to create a character that feels more unqiue, precisely because broader demographic groups aren't so picky with having a specific set of conditions to like their characters.
This is exactly what people are talking about and want more of, the problem is that the demographic aimed at is too narrow (white teenage boys/young men) and the characters are worse/flatter/less unique for it.

I think you're somehow mistaking aiming broader for catering to a niche??
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SundownKid
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« Reply #81 on: December 11, 2012, 07:35:02 AM »

It's not that modern shooters are something that women automatically dislike, it's that they assume women will dislike them and market them to guys. I'm sure women and men alike enjoyed Portal and Portal 2, but all shooters these days have to involve modern military settings (of which all the characters are men) and ultraviolence, something that society breeds men to tolerate/enjoy more. Shooter is a genre, not something that has to be located in the middle of a war.

Basically "if you build it they will come". If you make a female character, women will want to play it more.
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feminazi
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« Reply #82 on: December 11, 2012, 07:37:23 AM »

i can make an anecdotal claim. i like shooters more than everyone on this forum, therefore men don't like shooters.

it's pointless to appeal to another audience (wait let me reword that)
it's good to ALIENATE A PORTION OF YOUR AUDIENCE to SAVE SOME MONEY
oh, except that's how you GROW YOUR AUDIENCE and EARN MORE MONEY in the first place.

nerd marketing 101, where somehow cutting your reach is a good thing because no reason.
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Hythlodaeus
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« Reply #83 on: December 11, 2012, 07:55:30 AM »

and i didn't ask for what rpgs let you pick a woman, considering the study wasn't talking about gender choice games

Gender choice games comprise the majority of RPGs. If you don't feel like googling for shooters, than be as you are.


And I don't recall saying you did (nice strawman). I pointed out that you're defending the phenomenon (while having the gut to call avoiding doing this pandering!)

Still a strawman, because I'm not defending characters dressing like strippers. I already explained before there are some gross examples and a general inclination towards preset beauty standards. That is indeed pandering in terms of looks, but in a general way that doesn't necessarily interferes with character writing. Niche pandering tends to do that, though, especially when, in this case I believe, is unjustified.

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This is exactly what people are talking about and want more of, the problem is that the demographic aimed at is too narrow (white teenage boys/young men) and the characters are worse/flatter/less unique for it.

That is so wrong, especially if you consider if you consider the RPG genre. 

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I think you're somehow mistaking aiming broader for catering to a niche??

Although the core audience is considered to be men from 15 to 30, it is still wrong to say women are misrepresented in videogames, and that they are not accounted for audience-wise. I do admit, as I already have previously, they lack some protagonism, but as far as character aspect and personality goes, I feel women have as many reasons to complain as men.
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feminazi
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« Reply #84 on: December 11, 2012, 07:57:41 AM »

and i didn't ask for what rpgs let you pick a woman, considering the study wasn't talking about gender choice games

Gender choice games comprise the majority of RPGs. If you don't feel like googling for shooters, than be as you are.

the burden of proof is on you, silly.
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feminazi
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« Reply #85 on: December 11, 2012, 08:02:17 AM »

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Although the core audience is considered to be men from 15 to 30, it is still wrong to say women are misrepresented in videogames, and that they are not accounted for audience-wise.
oh look it's wrong to say it because no actual reason.
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« Reply #86 on: December 11, 2012, 08:25:29 AM »

re: pandering to a "niche audience:" imagine if in movies, most black characters were played by white actors in blackface talking fake jive and singing "coon songs."
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Schoq
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« Reply #87 on: December 11, 2012, 08:44:44 AM »

That is indeed pandering in terms of looks, but in a general way that doesn't necessarily interferes with character writing. Niche pandering tends to do that, though
This makes absolutely no sense. Are you basing this on anything at all?

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This is exactly what people are talking about and want more of, the problem is that the demographic aimed at is too narrow (white teenage boys/young men) and the characters are worse/flatter/less unique for it.

That is so wrong, especially if you consider if you consider the RPG genre.
Trying to figure out what you could mean with this. Is your point here that the genre is enjoyed by a more diverse group of people and as such has better characters? Or that is features bad characters despite this?
Or something else?
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gimymblert
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« Reply #88 on: December 11, 2012, 09:50:56 AM »

re: pandering to a "niche audience:" imagine if in movies, most black characters were played by white actors in blackface talking fake jive and singing "coon songs."

Imagine a white person playing as any ethnicity (think about cleopatra) in a serious movie now imagine a black person playing any european king (or any important "white" historical figure) in a serious movie...
Some have claim there should be no black in fantasy because it is based on white culture ...

It's funny that the market has shift toward more female player (hardcore too) and we still has this discussion, in fact that's why we have these discussion, female start to be a viable and visible part of the market, pick their money!  Big Laff

At least nintendo heard them (even he failed at other M by actually trying too hard)



BTW good writing is always good documentation, it's was never about pandering to a niche but actually good writing, you can't write a proper female lead and avoiding this discussion at all, if yes then you are not doing a good job.
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kiddRaddical
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« Reply #89 on: December 11, 2012, 10:23:12 AM »

Is it a cop-out to say that there probably is no "right" answer?

In my opinion, characters' visual designs should either tell their story (if you're going for a legit story) or just be interesting to look at (where there is no "real" story, ie Sonic/Mario/etc). As far as sexual attractiveness, I don't understand why so many games bend over backwards to make the female leads do the same (tangentially-related: look up "the Hawkyye initiative" to see what I mean).

IMHO: People is people, characters is characters. Just make it a good character first, and do what the story calls for. (That's just good writing in general, though  Smiley )


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« Reply #90 on: December 11, 2012, 10:33:38 AM »

re: pandering to a "niche audience:" imagine if in movies, most black characters were played by white actors in blackface talking fake jive and singing "coon songs."
Imagine a white person playing as any ethnicity (think about cleopatra) in a serious movie now imagine a black person playing any european king (or any important "white" historical figure) in a serious movie...
Some have claim there should be no black in fantasy because it is based on white culture ...
idk if youre agreeing or disagreeing with me but i didn't necessarily choose the blackface example because of the ethnicity thing but because it's historically loaded.

(fantasy has some issues with racism in general but that's another story)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 10:40:36 AM by C.A. Sinclair » Logged
gimymblert
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« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2012, 10:38:32 AM »

Representation of ethnicity IS historically loaded (banzai for exemple), something bioshock infinite lightly plays on for example. There is the problem of "default", some are default for "any" representation.

also:
http://fuckyeahethnicwomen.tumblr.com/post/35570509481/gee-i-dont-know-how-to-research-writing-characters-of
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feminazi
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« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2012, 11:00:35 AM »

Representation of ethnicity IS historically loaded (banzai for exemple), something bioshock infinite lightly plays on for example. There is the problem of "default", some are default for "any" representation.

also:
http://fuckyeahethnicwomen.tumblr.com/post/35570509481/gee-i-dont-know-how-to-research-writing-characters-of

cool resource
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« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2012, 11:06:51 AM »

Representation of ethnicity IS historically loaded (banzai for exemple), something bioshock infinite lightly plays on for example. There is the problem of "default", some are default for "any" representation.

also:
http://fuckyeahethnicwomen.tumblr.com/post/35570509481/gee-i-dont-know-how-to-research-writing-characters-of

um yeah that was the point
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kiddRaddical
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« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2012, 11:28:35 AM »

Since we're bringing ethnicity into this, I thought this was relevant: http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/motion-captured/posts/could-community-star-donald-glover-play-spider-man
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« Reply #95 on: December 11, 2012, 11:38:55 AM »

on changing the race of recognizable characters, I always thought mos def would be an awesome riddler  Noir
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gimymblert
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« Reply #96 on: December 11, 2012, 12:44:21 PM »

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Latinos drive videogame sales but are poorly represented in the medium. Black and hispanic people play more videogames but don’t get to make them (or be in them). Games with woman protagonists have marketing budgets 40% lower or less than man-games. The straight, white, male, young  ‘target audience’ is a fiction and a self-fulfilling prophecy.

First myth debunked



edit:
On the supposedly meritocracy nothing scream meritocracy more than fighting game and yet ...


Quote
They act it, too. Exercise 4 comes with a trigger warning. Please read about or bring to memory the following three examples of gaming misogyny: Maddy Myers’ account of being mocked, belittled, and tacitly excluded on the fighting game circuit, Miranda Pakozdi’s forced forfeit in the face of sexual harassment, and Ryan Perez’ drunken attack on Felicia Day.

These are well-covered issues, but I would like to place them in their educational context. All three involved subtypes of videogame literacy which are highly specialised and take extreme devotion to achieve. The best fighting games do demand the psychological brinksmanship of poker and the motor skill of a musical instrument, no matter how foul this fact is made is in the mouths of fans who enlist it to defend their misogyny. Likewise, high-level raiding in World of Warcraft requires intricate knowledge of its fighting systems and levels of team coordination to make management trainers envious (plus, let’s face it, weeks of bullshit grinding).

But for Perez, who called Day “a glorified booth babe”, or Aris Bakhtanians, who said the fighting game community and rape threats were “one and the same”, it is not enough that these women fulfil the ostensible requirements of these advanced forms of education. Maddy Myers says repeatedly that all she wants to do is learn the game and get better, but the community will not allow her to do so on the same level as a man. Pakozdi cannot compete fairly with men but must also suffer abuse that is specific to her gender and whose direct equivalent, if any exists, is not imposed on her opponents. And what Perez is really ‘asking’ Day is whether her educational credentials are real; like Donald Trump on his quixotic quest to debunk Barrack Obama’s academic achievements, he just can’t believe that a woman, of all things, can possibly be qualified.

There are a hundred more examples, large and small, every day. This is a culture of exclusion. It functions to dismiss and deny the luderacy of women, and dissuade other women from trying to achieve it even if it interests them. Day’s experience, for example, should be seen in light of the ‘fake geek girl’ meme that recently blew up in the world of comics – another geeky subculture where prominent individuals apparently fear infiltration by man-eating shape shifters dressed as Sexy John Constantine or whatever. The discourse is all about ‘posing’, ‘really’ knowing, the true believers and the pretenders, and extra tests are introduced in order to distinguish them. Can you name every Green Lantern ever? Come on, it’s just trash talking. Hey, get on mic so we can scrutinise your voice. Hope you’re ready for a literacy test if you want to vote. Can you say ‘Magdalen College’?

As in real-world education debates, nobody is claiming that no tests and no standards are ever legitimate. In a fighting game tournament we accept that some people will have to lose and drop out, just as others must win; likewise, I wouldn’t let you join my WoW raiding guild if I didn’t think you could cut the mustard. The problem is of dishonest requirements. Whatever test gets set up, it somehow always seems to apply differently to women, or blacks, or gays, or whoever. Sometimes, as in Gladwell’s example of the Liberian IQ test, it starts as an accident; a test designed for one culture doesn’t work in another. But when people defend the test as ‘objective’, denigrate those who it excludes and wilfully blind themselves to its bias, the effect is exactly the same. Just look at the BritRuby scandal in the programming world, where some people couldn’t stand the idea that privilege might exist and play a part in their success. Or see the case of Rebecca ‘Skepchick’ Watson, whose right to speak about science was questioned (but not that of her equivalently-educated male peers) once she wrote about sexism at skeptic conferences. In his book Outliers, Gladwell compiles many striking examples of false requirements in sport, business and politics. He did so not out of pure curiosity but because he didn’t like living a culture which constantly tells itself that all its tests are fair.

http://theartreferences.tumblr.com/post/37589400239/ryanestradadotcom-do-it-wrong-cartoonists
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 12:57:37 PM by Gimmy TILBERT » Logged

SundownKid
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« Reply #97 on: December 11, 2012, 03:56:24 PM »

In my opinion, characters' visual designs should either tell their story (if you're going for a legit story) or just be interesting to look at (where there is no "real" story, ie Sonic/Mario/etc).

I see no reason why it can't be both - character design doesn't have to be realistic to tell a story.

As far as sexual attractiveness, I don't understand why so many games bend over backwards to make the female leads do the same (tangentially-related: look up "the Hawkyye initiative" to see what I mean).

Considering a vast amount of game devs are male, it makes sense that something like this would happen even if the audience isn't. I don't think you can truly have a stylized, yet equal-opportunity game without it getting boring once and a while - both men and women desire highly sexualized characters sometimes.
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« Reply #98 on: December 11, 2012, 05:35:05 PM »

I miss the days when Samus was an amazon...  Just look at how fucking serviceable she is here.  As if the cross section of her suit wasn't just awesome enough.  Seems like back in the day Western representation of her often framed her as a fucking powerhouse.  There's also some early manga stuff of her that paints her as pretty flighty that was made by Nintendo, but I feel like referencing that is like me bringing up the Super Mario Bros. Super Show to talk about Princess Peach's characterization.  I think that stuff was just out of character laughs.  But I'm pretty sure the second image was canon at some point, and the first image is from an ad but it just seems to drive home how people used to think of her.
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GhostBomb
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« Reply #99 on: December 11, 2012, 10:33:07 PM »

I think that Riot's portrayal of woman is sad.  Especially with newer champions.  Like, look at these two newer chicks.  Not only are they completely sexualized and devoid of almost any personality, they look almost identical!

http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws.com/images/news/July_2012/2012_07_18_zyra_dev_diary/zyra_splash.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3pEG3WEUYwQ/UIYF4rp2WWI/AAAAAAAAJSY/sSqQwwKdDVA/s1600/Elise_Splash_0.jpg

Seriously, is it just me, or did the same girl just switch cosplay costumes?  They even sound the same in game.  Not to mention that they came out extremely close to each other.  Newer female champions are idealized by a ridiculous amount to the point where they have the same proportions and even the same face.

Oh, and then there's this monstrosity:

http://th09.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2011/301/4/0/evelynn_splash_art_by_yumedust-d4e7s4q.jpg

I don't even know where to start with this one.  I'll just add one thing:  This is a stealth character.  You know, sneaking around, hiding in the shadows.  Not really the type to be wearing a diaper and spikes on their thighs like an idiot.
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