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[Panurge]

Apologies if this has been covered in another thread, but I'm interested in hearing some views on sexual content in games. I've recently started developing a game with some fairly mild sexual themes and animations and I've been surprised by the reaction it has received from friends (nobody here, incidentally). I've written much more explicit short stories in the past and the same friends have read them without batting an eyelid but they seem troubled by the idea of any erotic content in a game. Why should this be?

Is it because games are still seen by many as being an art-form primarily pitched at children? I'm pretty sure this doesn't apply to at least one of the friends concerned, who is a very keen gamer. Also, I say 'still seen' but at the same time I remember the old risqué Sierra games like 'Leather Goddesses of Phobos'...

Or perhaps there is something in the interactive nature of games which makes any sexual content seem more intimate and participatory than in books or films. One of my friends suggested that the sex should be 'jokey' rather than erotic, the implication being that it was somehow sleazy to want to turn the player on, but this struck me as odd - would you suggest to a writer or film director that they should avoid making their sex scenes too sensual?

Thirdly, I think maybe recent trends give a generally bad impression of what 'sexy' games are like. The typical associations are the geeky sleaze of hentai and the adolescent misogyny of games like GTA and The Witcher. Personally, I'd love to see more games treating sexual themes in a thoughtful and mature way.

Hopefully not everyone will agree with me. It would be great to hear some varied opinions on the subject and get a bit of discussion going.

[ink.inc]

Nothing wrong with it, though I'd prefer it was done tastefully. Admittedly most sexual content in videogames is rather ham-handed and awkward (possibly because the sex aspect is rather detached or out of place within the context), but there are exceptions. Katawa Shoujo being one.

[Panurge]

I hadn't heard of Katawa Shoujo but it looks interesting and I'll definitely check it out. Thanks!

By the way, I should have mentioned in the first post that I have played some games which handle sexual themes with great delicacy and maturity (and also sometimes with a good sense of fun, which I think can be just as important) but I can't think of any mainstream games which do this. I'm particularly interested in the perception of games as a medium by casual gamers and the general public. Why is extreme violence acceptable but even mild sexual content considered controversial? I know the case is similar in film and TV but there seems to me to be an even wider discrepancy in games.

[roc]

Also, I say 'still seen' but at the same time I remember the old risqué Sierra games like 'Leather Goddesses of Phobos'...

Or perhaps there is something in the interactive nature of games which makes any sexual content seem more intimate and participatory than in books or films.

I remember digging through my dad's old trunk as a kid and finding his hidden copy of 'Sex Vixens from Space' for our Amiga.  Even at the age of 9 that box art cracked me up.

To contribute, I always assumed the main difference between the way sex is perceived in games as opposed to other forms of media is that interactive element you mention.  If you hand someone a story with sex in it, they as a reader are just passively experiencing it.  If you hand someone a game with sex in it that requires them to make choices that will on some level be colored by their own preferences (or "worse", being limited to options that don't reflect their own sexuality), then I guess I can see how some people would be uncomfortable.  Even just asking for input, which would also be colored by preference.

Personally my peeve about it is rarely the sex itself (by which I mean sex in games doesn't seem remarkably worse than sex on TV, and lots of people eat that up with a spoon right?), but the eye-rollingly awful romance elements it can get shoehorned into.  It's a shame because I am a sucker for a good love subplot.

Why is extreme violence acceptable but even mild sexual content considered controversial? I know the case is similar in film and TV but there seems to me to be an even wider discrepancy in games.

Dunno about games in particular, but extreme violence doesn't really hit home for me like sexual content does.  Some people can relate to extreme violence in real life, but sex is a very personal and important thing for nearly anyone, which in a perfect universe you'd think would make it even more valid for artistic consideration, and down the rabbit hole I go.

What games have you played that presented sexual themes well in your opinion, Panurge?

[Panurge]

What games have you played that presented sexual themes well in your opinion, Panurge?

I'm glad you called me on that because now I really think about it, I can hardly name any at all... Most are from the world of IF rather than conventional games (authors such as Emily Short and Porpentine), so I guess they don't really count in this discussion. There are a few games I've played which I seem to remember presented sexualised relationships quite well (although shying from any overt content) such as Shadow of Rome, Prince of Persia (3?) and one of the mafia-based console games (Mafia? The Godfather?). But you can tell I'm grabbing at straws. And I can't think of a single game which featured a relationship between two people who weren't perfect physical specimens of opposite genders...

I think John's example from above looks quite promising.  I wonder if anyone else has any others?

To contribute, I always assumed the main difference between the way sex is perceived in games as opposed to other forms of media is that interactive element you mention.  If you hand someone a story with sex in it, they as a reader are just passively experiencing it.  If you hand someone a game with sex in it that requires them to make choices that will on some level be colored by their own preferences (or "worse", being limited to options that don't reflect their own sexuality), then I guess I can see how some people would be uncomfortable.  Even just asking for input, which would also be colored by preference.

Yes, I think the psychology behind this is fascinating and I'm surprised games developers don't exploit it a little more...

[Alex Higgins]

Interesting question. In addition to the added interactivity, I think it's also because we're just not used to sex in games yet. For example, while the violence in Doom is pretty mild by today's standards, it did shock a lot of people at the time.

Still, even though we're much more accepting of sex in novels and film, people generally are made less uncomfortable by violence than sex. Some parents are fine if their twelve year old plays Call of Duty but would freak if they found their kid watching a porno. Our culture's kind of strange that way.

Have you played Embric of Wulfhammer's Castle, by any chance? It'd be a good case study. The heroine ends up having sex with nearly every other primary female character before the end.

[ink.inc]

What I appreciated about Katawa Shoujo was that sex did not signal the end of the plotline. It was not a mere prize that you get for clicking through some dialogue trees. Rather, it was a punctuation within the context of forging a deeper relationship with another character. This is what separates it from something like Mass Effect, where pursuing sexual relations with your crewmates is a mere side plot that has no discernible effect on the rest of the gameplay or main plot in general. You have sex with them, and then never speak with them again. Which comes off as rather cheap in my opinion.

[ink.inc]

Speaking of good games with relationship building elements, the Persona games (specifically 3 and 4) do this quite well. You build up what are called Social Links with various characters in the story, through attempts at friendship and discussion and understanding. What's interesting in Persona is that building these relationships (each of which represent a different personality type/viewpoint as outlined in the Tarot) has a direct effect on gameplay. Attaining Social Links allows you to forge better Personas of that Tarot type (ie Chariot, Temperance, Lover etc.), and if the character is a member of your party, increases that character's utility within combat. For example, if you get close enough to a party member, that character can do combo attacks with you, or will even take a hit for you that would have otherwise resulted in your death.

My main gripe is that though fulfilling a relationship with another character (sometimes in the biblical sense) affects gameplay, it has no real effect on the main plot. The effects of going out with Yukari from Persona 3, for example, are contained purely within that subplot. During the main plot, that character makes absolutely no allusions to your relationship.

This is a missed opportunity imo.

[ink.inc]

What I'm trying to do in (one of my) current projects is to combine the sort of fulfilling relationships and plots found in Katawa Shoujo with the interesting effects those relationships can have on gameplay as seen in Persona (specifically within the context of combating religious dictatorships/fanaticism), and maybe throw in some Phoenix Wright as well. Though I still have a lot to work out, hopefully I achieve something something I can be proud of.

[Panurge]

Have you played Embric of Wulfhammer's Castle, by any chance? It'd be a good case study. The heroine ends up having sex with nearly every other primary female character before the end.

I haven't but I've just read the account of it on your blog and I certainly will do now. Thanks for the recommendation. There's a lot of really good, thought-provoking writing on that blog, by the way.

What I'm trying to do in (one of my) current projects is to combine the sort of fulfilling relationships and plots found in Katawa Shoujo with the interesting effects those relationships can have on gameplay as seen in Persona (specifically within the context of combating religious dictatorships/fanaticism), and maybe throw in some Phoenix Wright as well. Though I still have a lot to work out, hopefully I achieve something something I can be proud of.

I want to play it already!  By the way, I stumbled across this site earlier:

 http://dirolab.com

It's seemingly abandoned but has some interesting and loosely relevant articles.

[Muz]

Personally, I've always been annoyed at this. I've always preferred to have more sex than violence in my games. It's more an American thing, IMO. Europeans and Japanese are way more tolerant of sex in games. In fact, German games seem to be the opposite: plenty of random sex in their games, but violence is taboo.

Though I've rarely seen sex done right in videogames. A lot of the mainstream ones try to appeal to adolescent males, so they're brief and tasteless. I'd agree that you'd have to add a true romantic subplot to 'serious sex' instead of just putting in a one night stand.

[Panurge]

Yes, the example which always stands out for me is The Witcher, in which you literally collect sexual conquests which have no other bearing on the game.

Muz, I seem to remember you positing the idea of an Oglaf game on another thread. Now that could really work...

[s0]

In fact, German games seem to be the opposite: plenty of random sex in their games, but violence is taboo.

i can't think of a SINGLE german game like that.


ANYWAY, ON TOPIC: sex is great and should definitely be in games, but there are so many pitfalls if youre trying to handle it in a serious way. for instance it's hard to be "erotic" without crossing over into porn and on the other side of the spectrum it's hard to make a "tame" sex scene not look awkward. this applies to movies and novels just the same as games.

i kinda have a gut reaction against making sex interactive but i can't rationalize it right now.

[Ego_Shiner]

ah yes katawa shoujo, nothing says maturity like unadressed sexual assault, emotional manipulation, fetishizing disabilities, and enabling the infantilization of a teenage girl. videogame have come so far.

for reals tho, catherine was pretty clever about the way it dealt with sex and relationships, i cant think of many other decent examples than that.

[gggfhfdh]

[ink.inc]

ah yes katawa shoujo, nothing says maturity like unadressed sexual assault, emotional manipulation, fetishizing disabilities, and enabling the infantilization of a teenage girl. videogame have come so far.

ehh the game actually says quite a bit about not objectifying people, or reducing them to their disabilities, or treating them like children. take, for example, the character of hanako. treating her like a fragile flower incapable of making her own decisions (ie the infantilization of which you speak) is detrimental to her mental health and self-confidence, and the consequences on the resulting story are devastating.

now, if you listen to people who talk about the game, it's not the disabilities that they latch onto; rather it's the character as a whole, and their personalities. the game takes pains to stress the fact that fetishizing people is a really bad idea, and that players should look past that. of course, it's not a conclusion that was reached by 100 percent of the playerbase, but i think it's true for the vast majority.

as for sexual assault, i'm not quite clear where you're getting that from. the characters within the game agree to have sex consensually and on rational terms (with one exception, and the main character feels like a shitbag for doing so).

admittedly a visual novel with pornographic elements is not something you'd like to admit to your parents to having played/read (and perhaps it's more than marginally creepy in the sexual portrayal of high school girls), but i hold that it deals with these issues in a non-trivial, respectful manner, and that the basic themes and general appeal of the story would have held true had the setting changed to something more socially acceptable.

[rdein]

ah yes katawa shoujo, nothing says maturity like unadressed sexual assault, emotional manipulation, fetishizing disabilities, and enabling the infantilization of a teenage girl. videogame have come so far.

holy fucking crap

[ink.inc]

What TeeGee (developer of Cinders, another visual novel) had to say about KS (and relationships in games in general):

What I liked the most, is how naturally the game treats relationships and sex. This is my pet peeve usually. I hate how most games, even/especially "serious" AAA RPGs, make the bumpy road to her pants the whole relationship. Even if you are a 40-something space captain on a suicide mission, all your possible love interests behave like innocent schoolgirls, and you need to spend the whole game courting them to get a mildly amusing sex scene as a reward. And what happens after the sex? Nothing. The character stops talking to you. Because - as well all know - absolutely nothing interesting can happen after you fuck. Hate it  !

KS, on the other hand, does this really well, and quite boldly so. Sex scenes are both described and depicted without shying away from anything, but it manages to walk the thin line between hentai and naive. It shows everything there's to show, but it's not porn - it depicts love making as a natural and fun part of being in love. Props for that! And - what's even more important - it doesn't make getting laid the main goal of the game. You usually get to fuck pretty soon, like in most real-life relationships, but it's what happens next that matters. The initial fascination slowly fades away, you get to know each other more, problems arise, and only after solving them, you get to live happily ever after. That's exactly how I would like relationships to be done in games.

[Ego_Shiner]

ehh the game actually says quite a bit about not objectifying people, or reducing them to their disabilities, or treating them like children. take, for example, the character of hanako. treating her like a fragile flower incapable of making her own decisions (ie the infantilization of which you speak) is detrimental to her mental health and self-confidence, and the consequences on the resulting story are devastating.

except where it ends with her getting fake adopted by the main character and its TOTALLY OK AND CUTE YOU GUYS

as for sexual assault, i'm not quite clear where you're getting that from. the characters within the game agree to have sex consensually and on rational terms (with one exception, and the main character feels like a shitbag for doing so).

oh well if he feels BAD about it. and if i recall the consent was generally pretty iffy at best a lot of the time.

admittedly a visual novel with pornographic elements is not something you'd like to admit to your parents to having played/read (and perhaps it's more than marginally creepy in the sexual portrayal of high school girls), but i hold that it deals with these issues in a non-trivial, respectful manner, and that the basic themes and general appeal of the story would have held true had the setting changed to something more socially acceptable.

you realize the name of the game literally translates to "cripple girls" dont you

[ink.inc]

except where it ends with her getting fake adopted by the main character and its TOTALLY OK AND CUTE YOU GUYS

If you chose to infantilize that specific character, that is not how the story ends at all:



In the ending I think you're talking about (

), it is true that Hisao does make some paternal overtures, but he also states that he's glad that he can speak with Hanako "as equals", without her feelings of uselessness and depression holding her back. This is by no means the clear cut display of infantilization and objectification you seem to imply.

and if i recall the consent was generally pretty iffy at best a lot of the time.

One has to question how you managed to continue to read a VN you found so morally reprehensible.

At any rate, with regards to the aforementioned consent: let it be said that more than one of the female characters take the first step, so to speak. Hisao is by no means predatory. And the one time Hisao has sex with a character who is not completely rational (and let it be noted that it is she who starts it, not the other way around), the authors make it very clear that it is and was an ill conceived decision and punish you if you make it. Now, if you want to condemn the authors for allowing the player to make those bad decisions in the first place, then okay, but then we're fall into the danger of making something less interesting, and certainly more empty.

And yes, the title is rather unfortunate and insensitive (its a holdover from the concept art by Raita), and it might have been a good idea to change it, BUT IT IS NOT indicative of the work as a whole, and I certainly hope that's not your sole detraction to the particular evaluation I made. The actual content should speak for itself. I only hope the OP plays the game and comes to his (or her) own conclusions. It is by no means a perfect piece of art, and I am not defending it as such. The writing is inconsistent in certain parts (Hanako's route wasn't particularly appealing to me, and Shizune's route was outright bad), and the art assets are occasionally rather laughable. But it is not so devoid of good ideas that we can learn nothing from it.