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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperPlaytestingSuper Pillow Fighter 2D
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Alec
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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2007, 01:52:08 PM »

Could do a multiplayer game with matches featuring all kinds of childhood weapons... but on a huge scale.

Like yeah, fighting it out on city streets on a nex gen console with like 128 players online would be pretty rad.

EDIT: Hmm thematically such a game could be pretty interesting. It'd be interesting to have the city abandoned by adults. (all the player characters are kids) There'd be this eerie empty feeling to the levels.

Then the whole idea of kids fighting massive, but non-lethal wars would also be interesting. Kind of like kids rule the world now, and they're making a mockery of what came before.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 02:08:00 PM by Alec » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2007, 02:24:46 AM »

PLEASE don't remake Nerf Tournament...
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« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2007, 02:47:56 AM »

Ah, have to finish my remake of Extreme PaintBrawl first. Wink
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« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2007, 04:15:31 AM »

Ok, let's come back to the main topic, shall we Wink

I played the game and, since you're actually selling the entire game, I take it that the demo is a reflection of what I can buy.
Here are my overall comments... I'd like to point out that I'm a big fan of fighting games so I might be pecky. You've been warned! Wink

In the option menu. If you're going to tell us how to use your game, please do it in an intelligible way. Key 44 doesn't mean a thing to me.

In the options, if I press the Z(back) button the screen reacts in a very weird way. If I can't cancel, don't show me anything because it makes it feel like the aplication is unstable.

You also have to let your player exit the screens easily. For instance, when I'm in the character select screen, I can't escape it until I reach the game area.

In the character selection screen, who is P0? Player zero? Pillow 0? I have no idea but I have to select four PO or P0. Speaking of selection, you should start off with one girl displayed in the screen to tell us what to do here. Right now, the player gets in the screen and it's empty. Just four ovals and that P0 thing we don't know what it is.

You shouldn't have a zero setting in the difficulty unless the cpu is going to be a simple dummy with no actions. And if that's the case, call it dummy and not 0.

I see that you have a fullscreen/window toggle. Good move! You also have ways to adjust sound and music and that's great too Wink

Quitting always need a confirmation. Always.

Ok, let's move one to the game itself...

Ok, first thing, why isn't up jumping? Since left and right moves the avatar and down makes it crouch, Up should do something too. Right now, pressing up doesn't change a thing which tels the player that up has no use. If you don't want to make the character jump on up, perhaps it could be blocking. Anything that doesn't attack and has something to do with basic movement.

Hiting is ackward. First of all, why the hell are there kicks in a pillow fight? I believe that you should have 4 kind of attack based on pillows.

Speaking of hitting, when I press a button, the action must be done right away. if I press the quick button, the pillow should be in the opponent's face, not in the movement toward it. The harder the hit, the more time it takes to reach it's final position BUT it starts to deal damage the second the button is pressed. Right now, I have to wait for the damage, even on fast attacks.

You have to differs your character's reach. Personaly, I'd make every character have more reach than that. Right now, everyone must be in very close combat. It's not bad in itslef but it suggests that eveyr match will be of the same type: everybody get's together in a bunch and the one who presses the button faster will win...

Besides super moves, what differs from one character to another? Are there really differences? Do they have special counters, anti-air, speed attacks, different speed movement, differet jumping heights and speed? You need to give us a gamplay cvhoice between your characters instead of simply a graphic choice. I know you can say that some popular fighting game makes all the fighters play the same except the super moves but the best fighters offers the player different gameplay experience with different characters. I believe it's very important to have in any kind of fighting games.

Are there techniques you can learn beside button smashing? Like defensive techniques or counter-techniques? Something to make the player learn a bit more about the game has he plays?

As far as motivation... Except the "finish the game" basic motivation, why am I playing this game? will I unlock special things? New characters? Outfit? Backgrounds? Alternative play style? mini-games? You have to make sure that, in your demo and your game, the player will be able to do something more than want to defeat an opponent. There must be a pay off to this. Try to be original. I see that you can set various special game options like gravity. perhaps that could be a feature that you unlock by finishing the game. Fighting games get easily boring after you get the basics. That's why you have to give the player another motivation than the idea of beating the game with all characters.

Graphically speaking, you should try to make this a bit more appealing. Right now, I feel the games in't solid enough to makes us move over the simple graphics. Add more textures and perhaps less black outlines could really help.

As mentionned earlier, this game will be very hard to maret since it's very sexual. All the characters are females in tight and short outfits, striking very caricatural poses. It's not imposisble to market but it'll be hard. Even with the best grahics and gameplay in the world Wink

Well, I gotta go.
Keep it up and keep us noticed of further development!
Later!

     
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fish
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« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2007, 06:46:16 AM »

man, i cant wait to get feedback from guert for my game.
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« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2007, 07:53:34 AM »

I saw him first!
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« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2007, 10:55:01 AM »

Wow, that's some great feedback!  Those are all pretty valid points.  I'll try to explain a couple of them.

In the character selection screen, who is P0? Player zero? Pillow 0?

You shouldn't have a zero setting in the difficulty unless the cpu is going to be a simple dummy with no actions. And if that's the case, call it dummy and not 0.

Yeah, programmers start counting at 0.  It's one more reason why they shouldn't be allowed to design anything Smiley 

Quote
Ok, first thing, why isn't up jumping?

I thought it would be cool if up could be used for directional attacks. For example  if you press up+attack I think all the characters have a move where they swing the pillow over their head as anti-air attack.  Also there are some special moves like up,down,attack where the character pulls the pillow way back behind her head and swings it down like a sledgehammer.

Quote
Besides super moves, what differs from one character to another? Are there really differences?

The biggest difference between the characters is the way their special moves are used to control spacing.  For example, Mei is most effective as an anti-air character or if she can get below the other player.  If a player tries to jump in at her, she can easily use her Hurricane Kick or Rising Tackle moves.  Another example would be the boxer who has lots of short charge moves.  If you try to walk up and attack her she will mess you up. 

Quote
Are there techniques you can learn beside button smashing? Like defensive techniques or counter-techniques? Something to make the player learn a bit more about the game has he plays?

Button mashing actually isn't a very good technique.  You can only get in a few hits at most before the other player is knocked out of range, plus those moves do very little damage.  A player that knows how to properly use their characters special moves to control spacing can easily defeat a button masher.

Quote
As far as motivation... Except the "finish the game" basic motivation, why am I playing this game?

That's a very valid point.  This game is focused on recreating the multiplayer party game aspect of Smash Brothers, and as a result the single player game is really weak.

Anyways, thanks for all the great feedback!
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« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2007, 11:05:03 AM »

this comes off as sexist to me.

Me too.  I don't personally care that it's sexist, but it seems that it's giving mixed signals.  It does have some cuteness that has the potential to appeal to women out there, yet the sexism would turn a lot of those women away quickly.  That same cuteness would turn away a lot of guys.  And since it's more sexist than sexy, that side probably won't win them back.  All of this dwindles the potential audience quite a bit.

I posted a demo on the Shoryuken.com forums a while back, and the "sexy" elements of the game got a lot of positive feedback.  I figured since it's a fighting game and they're like the largest fighting game community, I should leave that stuff in.
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« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2007, 07:06:32 PM »

Hey there!

Just out of curiosity, what did you do on this project?

Hmmmm... I understand about the up thing... Still, I think there should be something associated with it right away to tell the player that he can use it. Perhaps you could have some sort of charge up thing. When you press up, you charge up your attack. This could bring a new gameplay element to the game. Just a thought.

As for the character, perhaps the demo could show 3 very different characters to show us the variety of the game.

I always felt like a fighting game should have three level of play: the basic play, the technical play and the special play.

The basic play is simply about pressing one button. When the player starts to play the game he learns how the buttons will react. There's nothing much to it. All characters behave almost exactly the same wat.

The technical play is about special techniques that every player can pull. These techniques are usualy combinations of two or three buttons or a result of a motion. Jumping and crouching attacks, pary, counters, etc... This also inlcudes moves that differ when the player presses a direction while punching/kicking. For example, the character may have a different kick if the player is pressing the kick button or pressing forward+kick. Technical play is usualy created to let the player learn more about the system. You can tell from a good player to a beginner just but it's use of tech play. Most characters will behave the same way but may not all ahve the same tech. For instance, all characters may have counters but some may execute the counter in a different way than another. This way, the player has to learn the technique and the character as well.

The special play is all the super moves. Super moves are usually created with a special motion or need a certain requirement before it can be pulled. This play is very important but not crucial to the game: if you have basic and tech play, super moves only sweatens the game. One can finsih teh gae without ever pulling a super move. Those who really want to learn the game and truly perform will ahve to know tech play and super play. The game should let the player link those two kind of play together so that the expert player will be able to learn how to link a tech elemnt to a super move or vice versa.

So, why am I telling all this? I believe that you could think of a more elaborated tech play in your game. Charging up culd be interesting because of the idea of pushing your opponent out rather than bringing its HP down. You could have a tehc element that allows us to throw a character. You could add a counter system that allows us to either throw the opponent down or simply stun it.   

There's alot that can be done with this. My favorite approach with super moves is to think about all the tech play and see what elemnts could be made stronger and make a super move about it. For instance, if we take the throwing example, you could have a super move where a girl grabs her opponent and throws her up in the air. This way, other may try to attack her in order to push her out while she's flying. Also, it could be used to throw out an opponent but wouldn't be too over kill since the charcter is going more upward than toward and edge.

Another thing I'd like to mention about getting feedback from forums. Now in these days, 14 year old kids have easy access to internet and who says internet says bombardment of sexist and brutaly materialist publicity. The judgements of the kids are easily altered and can't easily tell what's wrong with all of this because they lack the maturity. It was the same before internet, it's just that it's more of a jungle on the net than on tv. You don't get XXX adds by accident on tv or in a newspaper and the mailman doesn't ask you if you want to ennlarge your wee every time he gives you a letter Wink So, if you go and ask on a public forum if people like what they see, well, you can't know for sure how many 14 years old hormone driven teenagers are going to reply to your thread. Anyone who is going to say that pornographic stereotypes of women fighting each others in tight outfits with pillow is fine and a good thing are clearly, well, a bit immature. heck for all you know, I may be 13 year old. Before you concider a comment to be solid or not, try to find out a bit more about who posted it. Large communities means more chances of getting empty comments. 

Anyway, I'm not saying that making this game is bad idea or an immature project. Far from it. There are much worst game than that out there. Wink But let's face it: this game can appeal to only two groups: young hormone driven male teenagers who can slip this kind of thing under their parent's nose without them noticing (or caring) and men who likes pornographic stereotypes who want to spend 10$ on an indie game. One group has got money but will spend it on everything but you're game and the other has money but it is very small group. It's too bad if you work alot on a game that has potential but it doesn't sell because of a subject that doesn't easily reach out to the players.

Perhaps the game is ok and the naked chick in a bath didn't help Wink

Anywho, I wish you good luck with this project. I'd be very happy to know that it worked out afterall. Perhaps that you could start working on a sequel instead of working on this version. You could see how the public reacts and what you can add/remove from it...

Take care and keep it up!

PS: Fish, when do you think you're going to have something to show us? If you want, I can give you some feedback on a un-public beta demo or something if you'd like.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 07:09:13 PM by Guert » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2007, 09:09:48 AM »


PS: Fish, when do you think you're going to have something to show us? If you want, I can give you some feedback on a un-public beta demo or something if you'd like.



hopefully before the IGF deadline.
or else i fucked up.

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« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2007, 10:55:07 PM »

Hey there!

Just out of curiosity, what did you do on this project?

I did all the design, programming, and artwork, and some buddies helped out with the sound effects and music.

Quote
I always felt like a fighting game should have three level of play: the basic play, the technical play and the special play.

Well, this game definitly has high level play, but it's more like a game of billards than a traditional 2d fighter.  Like when a novice plays pool they'll just go around knocking the balls in, but a veteran always tries to line up for their next shot.  You can set up some pretty sick combos in SPF2D, but you need to take into account which direction the attack will hit the opponent, the amount of damage the other player has, and any variations in terrain they can bounce off of.

Like for example Josie has the Bare Knuckle move that knocks the other player straight up, and the Ground Pound move that knocks the player down at a 45 degree angle.  If the opponent is at the edge of the board she can use those two attacks to blast them right off the edge. 

However if the opponent has too much damage, the first move will throw them too far up and the second move won't connect.  If the opponent doesn't have enough damage the first move won't throw them high enough and they will end up standing behind Josie for an easy counterattack.  If she does this combo like off the roof of the castle board the opponent has enough time to recover and land safely on the ground below.

There's a lot of stuff like that, where a high-level player can use knowledge of where the opponent is gonna pop out at to set up for the next attack pattern.  Once you get past the gimmicks and flaws of the game, the gameplay is still totally there.

Thanks for all the feedback!  I've started working on my next game already, and I'm taking all these suggestions into consideration as I'm going through designing it.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 11:08:05 PM by the_dannobot » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2007, 03:34:08 AM »

Good new then! Wink

Keep us noticed of the new game's development! :D

Later!
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« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2007, 09:27:31 AM »

Cool, my next game is going to be a more traditional 2d fighter called "Samurai Tag Battle" or something.  It's going to be sort of "Marvel vs Capcom 2"-ish, with lots of samurai and ninjas jumping in and out for assists and tags throughout the match.  I want to incorporate some of the ground game from the Street Fighter series too, like the parrying system from Third Strike and alpha counters from SF:Alpha.  I learned most of the basics of 2d fighting systems making SPF2D, so this iteration will have all the advanced stuff.  It should be pretty cool!

It's still a long way off.  Most of the design is done, and I'm reusing a lot of the SPF2D code, but I'm planning to spend a LOT more time on the artwork.  I'm doing the characters in a Samurai Jack style.  I've almost got the first samurai sprited up, I might post him in the Artwork forum when he's done.

Also, taking into consideration all the feedback I've gotten and the nature of the game, maybe $10 is too much to ask for Super Pillow Fighter 2D.  I still think it's worth something though, so I dropped it to $5.  Maybe I'll get some "what the hell, it's only five bucks" sales Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2007, 09:57:22 AM »

Let us know how well it sells (if you don't mind sharing that info). I'm kind of skeptical still, mainly because this game doesn't have much that you can't get in a hundred freeware MUGEN games, but people said the same thing about my game and free flash tower defense games, and it's doing better than I expected.

Looking forward to your next game, although samurai/ninja setting fighting games will be hard to distinguish yourself in too (especially because of Samurai Showdown), but it's a good genre.

One idea I had for a fighting game once was to incorporate the more spiritual aspects of martial arts into the gameplay; for instance you might have battles where neither character moves at all (like that one scene in Hero). There's a lot that can be done with that.
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« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2007, 11:32:52 AM »

Yeah, I don't mind sharing sales figures, but I don't think it's fair to judge the game yet because it just came out and almost no one knows about it.

I'm hoping my next game will be more distinguishable from other samurai fighters by the quality of the graphics and animations.  Super Pillow Fighter didn't showcase it very well because the art was kind of crappy, but the paper-doll animation engine I'm using is really powerful.  I know that the whole "samurai genre" is kind of cliche, but samurai armor translates really well into the animation engine. 

Like a traditional 2d fighter has hundreds of images of each character that are swapped out to animate, so they have to use really low-res images to fit in memory.  Since paper doll animation re-uses only a few images, I can have have each individual peice of the samurai armor in great big textures with lots of detail.

Plus I've been working on my photochops since SPF2D, so I promise it'll look better this time around Smiley

Like what did you have in mind for the spiritual aspect of gameplay?  The design still isn't set in stone, so I'm open to suggestion.  Like I mentioned before, I want to do a really robust parry-counter system, like to the point where a master player with only one character can fight off four attackers at once.
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« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2007, 01:51:14 PM »

I didn't mean to judge the game based on sales, people buy things for arbitrary reasons, and it often has no relation to the worth of a game. For instance, The Sims is the best-selling game ever, yet I find it pointless.

I was thinking of a game focusing on aspects of martial arts besides fighting, so if you intended the normal "fighting game" mechanic consisting of 1v1 or 2v2 battles that isn't what I had in mind. There's a lot more to martial arts than duels, yet if you were to judge it based on the games made about it you'd think that was all there was to it.
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« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2007, 09:03:54 AM »

quick update:
I was inspired by the b-game competition, so I went back and did another bad-ass update for this game.  I guess I'm procrastinating by working on this game some more instead of diving into another project.

anyways, here's the changes from the last version:
-characters now shoot blood all over the place and spit teeth out when they get hit
-characters get "liquified" when they die Smiley
-different characters
-different boards
-All special moves are quarter-circles (every character has the same set of input strings to activate specials)
-'up' will jump in addition to the jump button
-fixed a bunch of bugs brought to my attention earlier in this thread

peep the new demo if you're interested: http://www.dannobot.com/downloads/Super%20Pillow%20Fighter%20Demo%20Installer.msi
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 09:09:43 AM by the_dannobot » Logged

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