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[muku]

Uh, has the petition text been changed? It seems that it talks exclusively about getting the game Determinance onto Steam. I see no mention of opening up to indie games in general, or even to making the selection process more transparent.

[ChrisFranklin]

Uh, has the petition text been changed? It seems that it talks exclusively about getting the game Determinance onto Steam. I see no mention of opening up to indie games in general, or even to making the selection process more transparent.

Oh wow.

Yeah, it's totally changed from what it was last night.  That's sort of a douche-y move.

[Craig Stern]

Oh, wtf. It won't let me take my signature off the petition now.

[brog]

Looks like they've changed it again, it's similar to how it started now.

Still, dodgy..

[Matt Thorson]

Each game fills a certain niche. They may not be (and in some cases I'd argue aren't even close to being) best in show, but it's far, far from a random choice.

And it's conceivable that some of these games would have a no-competition stlye agreement.
If Valve published an equally as good Darwinia clone, for example, each would have its sales cut in half. In theory. Leading to two unhappy devs instead of one happy dev, and no net profit for Valve.

But yeah ignoring people sucks. But I wonder if for book publishers, screenwriter type people, no-reply is the norm.

This logic seems flawed to me.

A more realistic scenario: Steam publishes "an equally as good Darwinia clone", but obviously it won't be exactly the same as Darwinia, so some consumers will prefer it while others will prefer the original.  Worst case scenario: The sales are split in half, no loss for Valve.  Likely scenario: the sales are split, but a few (possibly many) more consumers who wouldn't have bought Darwinia find the clone more to their taste and buy it, resulting in net gain for Valve.

I doubt Valve would even consider distributing games for indie devs that say crazy things like "you can distribute our game, but only if you promise not to distribute any similar games!"  Valve are the ones making the demands here, not the indie devs.

[Movius]

Movius, you're obviously an intelligent person, but I often suspect that your perception of your intelligence is not entirely in keeping with reality.

Sometimes, it would be totally okay to say something helpful and unsarcastic. Really? Valve want to... make money? Are they some kind of business?

Of course they want to make money. The fact remains that many indie games that could make them plenty of money (Aquaria, for example) have actually been completely ignored by Valve or, at least, not even dignified with a response.

I think you're overstating the selling power of many indiegames.

Don't get me wrong, I think valve would make a lot of money from Aquaria and they were foolish *in this specific instance* in not seeking to publish the game (I of course have no idea if any bit-blot/valve dialogue took place.)

But, even though they have already signed are fair few decent indie titles and I have no doubt both parties fared extremely well from the deal in all cases; You should Compare the best indie games (Aquaria/Audiosurf/Everyday Shooter/Darwinia/Defcon/etc.) Which, when they are on steam generally must sell at a lower price-point to what they would otherwise, to the latest addition to Steams Catalogue: Football Manager 2009 (with 10% of purchases at subside sports with every preorder,) Which sells at essentially the same price as retail ($US59.99, not counting the 10% discount at a store i've never heard of) and will still sell more than all indie games combined*.

It should be fairly obvious why steam considers indie games to be of relatively low priority despite past successes.

If you develop independent games then you should probably look up one of the many publishers that are actually intersted in that market. However, if you believe your match-3/hidden object hybrid can match it with the combined powers of Football Manager and Subside Sports, then by all means continue to seek to get your game on steam.

*not-so-obvious hyperbole

[Corpus]

Yeah, that's fair enough. Clearly there's a far bigger market for mainstream games than for indie games. Still, it seems to me that it would, at the very least, be nice of Valve to support indie games more. Few sales? Fine - it'll barely impact the server load, and they'll still be making a little bit extra on the side while making a big difference to the independent developers.

They're under no obligation to support indie games. That's a given. Still, we can always take the opportunity to politely suggest that they do so, because this is the internet and, dammit, we are going to say things.

I'm no longer sure what I feel about this specific petition, though, after reading the criticisms made of it in this thread.

[Zaphos]

No, opening up Steam (which is a totally different matter btw) is the worst thing Valve could do because it will become full of crap that the current audience (which, btw, includes me) does NOT like.

It's er, interesting, that you can speak for the entire current audience of Steam.  Personally I'm in that audience, and I just wish they'd act more like a store with unlimited shelf space (which is what an online store is!) and less like a publisher.  I don't care if there's a lot of crap on there; I'm usually looking for something specific in a store, and there's a search bar, and they can still recommend what they think is good.

Steam is good because they DO select what is going in and what not and they DO know what their audience likes (or else Steam wouldnt have that audience and their e-shop wouldnt sell anything else than Half-Life 2 and it would close instead of expanding).

That they have remained in business does not mean they are omniscient.  I think it would make sense if they were in fact a bit sloppy with indie stuff because I doubt it's a main draw for steam.

And yes, obviously everyone knows Valve gets to decide what's on Steam.  That doesn't mean I can't complain about their decisions, though  :D

[ChrisFranklin]

Well it's been pretty established across WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, and Steam that the idea of a digital distribution hub as a store with unlimited shelf space promising to catch the long-tail of the fruits of developer's works is sort of a myth.  Every single one of these entities is loathe to open their doors to mass submission, and XBox Live Arcade has even begun removing under-performing titles from the storefront.

Digital distribution is not the panacea we all thought it was - someone has to hold the keys to the portals, and that someone usually has a business agenda that doesn't necessarily correlate with the interests of developers.

[seregrail7]

Do you really think Valve is interested in selling a game just because 5000 people want to see it on Steam?

5000 is nothing to Valve, neither is 10,000. Maybe Determinance was refused to be put on Steam because Valve didn't like it, I know I wouldn't buy it.

I'm in a way sorry I bough Kudos 2 now if this is the carry on Cliff supports. The petition is nothing more than a 5 year old throwing a hissy fit because he's not getting what he wants.

[Zaphos]

Well it's been pretty established across WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, and Steam that the idea of a digital distribution hub as a store with unlimited shelf space promising to catch the long-tail of the fruits of developer's works is sort of a myth.  Every single one of these entities is loathe to open their doors to mass submission, and XBox Live Arcade has even begun removing under-performing titles from the storefront.

Digital distribution is not the panacea we all thought it was - someone has to hold the keys to the portals, and that someone usually has a business agenda that doesn't necessarily correlate with the interests of developers.

Is the iTunes app more open?  It seems quite a bit better, although I did hear there were still some issues there.

And certainly with other media, like music and books, there are much more open stores.  I think basically anyone can get an eBook sold on amazon's kindle just by uploading a text file somewhere?

I thought the XBL thing was mostly just because their interface design is so poor.  (And to be more fair, because it's probably harder to navigate a store without a keyboard.)

[ChrisFranklin]

Is the iTunes app more open?  It seems quite a bit better, although I did hear there were still some issues there.

And certainly with other media, like music and books, there are much more open stores.  I think basically anyone can get an eBook sold on amazon's kindle just by uploading a text file somewhere?

I thought the XBL thing was mostly just because their interface design is so poor.  (And to be more fair, because it's probably harder to navigate a store without a keyboard.)

Well as I said, it's primarily an interface issue.  If one could guarantee searching would find users exactly what they were looking for, it wouldn't be an issue.  Other factors play into it - wanting to maintain a certain level of quality, wanting to make sure the content you host reflects your company's image, etc.  But searchability is the one reason you don't see people trying to take on all comers.

Also, a quick Googling gives me this which highlights the difficulties in getting your music onto iTunes.  iTunes has massive volumes of content, but it's all from the same key record labels.  The advice they give is sort of like telling game developers to get a contract with a publisher - then Valve will be sure to be willing to pick you up!  So yeah, despite its mountains of content even iTunes isn't some magical place to make new artists.  It's a place for recently signed artists to get their breakthrough album/single to a larger populace.

[Zaphos]

Is the iTunes app more open?  It seems quite a bit better, although I did hear there were still some issues there.

And certainly with other media, like music and books, there are much more open stores.  I think basically anyone can get an eBook sold on amazon's kindle just by uploading a text file somewhere?

I thought the XBL thing was mostly just because their interface design is so poor.  (And to be more fair, because it's probably harder to navigate a store without a keyboard.)

Well as I said, it's primarily an interface issue.  If one could guarantee searching would find users exactly what they were looking for, it wouldn't be an issue.  Other factors play into it - wanting to maintain a certain level of quality, wanting to make sure the content you host reflects your company's image, etc.  But searchability is the one reason you don't see people trying to take on all comers.

Also, a quick Googling gives me this which highlights the difficulties in getting your music onto iTunes.  iTunes has massive volumes of content, but it's all from the same key record labels.  The advice they give is sort of like telling game developers to get a contract with a publisher - then Valve will be sure to be willing to pick you up!  So yeah, despite its mountains of content even iTunes isn't some magical place to make new artists.  It's a place for recently signed artists to get their breakthrough album/single to a larger populace.

That article basically says you can pay a third party service a small amount to get your work distributed on iTunes ... it's not the same at all.  Apple is not judging your music or deliberately restricting store size; they're clearly comfortable with hosting a very large range of material.

[ChrisFranklin]

That article basically says you can pay a third party service a small amount to get your work distributed on iTunes ... it's not the same at all.  Apple is not judging your music or deliberately restricting store size; they're clearly comfortable with hosting a very large range of material.

Well my point was more "You have to get signed by a distributor of some sort to even have a chance; you can't talk to Apple directly."  I concede that it's far, far easier to get your music onto iTunes than get your game on to Steam, but the fact remains that Apple doesn't welcome with open arms any indie musician who thinks he deserves to be on the store.

But regardless, I don't know how apt the iTunes comparison is - they clearly are interested in a rather wide swath of music.  Steam seems... erratic in their choice of admissions?  A few retro games (the older stuff from the id pack, XCOM, GTA1/2 when purchasing certain GTA titles), a few indie games, a few casual titles, and a whole buttload of mainstream commercial titles.  Which is clearly their focus, and that's fine.  But it really brings into question exactly how the outlier games managed to get onto the portal when their process of choosing said games is so opaque.

[Zaphos]

That article basically says you can pay a third party service a small amount to get your work distributed on iTunes ... it's not the same at all.  Apple is not judging your music or deliberately restricting store size; they're clearly comfortable with hosting a very large range of material.

Well my point was more "You have to get signed by a distributor of some sort to even have a chance; you can't talk to Apple directly."  I concede that it's far, far easier to get your music onto iTunes than get your game on to Steam, but the fact remains that Apple doesn't welcome with open arms any indie musician who thinks he deserves to be on the store.

But it seems "getting signed" can just mean paying TuneCore $20; it's basically just a simple administrative step.

But regardless, I don't know how apt the iTunes comparison is - they clearly are interested in a rather wide swath of music.  Steam seems... erratic in their choice of admissions?  A few retro games (the older stuff from the id pack, XCOM, GTA1/2 when purchasing certain GTA titles), a few indie games, a few casual titles, and a whole buttload of mainstream commercial titles.  Which is clearly their focus, and that's fine.  But it really brings into question exactly how the outlier games managed to get onto the portal when their process of choosing said games is so opaque.

I agree ... perhaps they're still testing the waters with indie and casual stuff?  If the criteria are actually changing significantly with time, that would explain their apparent randomness.

[GregWS]

Someone should ask Jon Mak about how he got onto Steam with Everyday Shooter.  Maybe he'd have some insights as to the selection process.

[ghosted]

I'll start with the honest admission that I am a Valve fanboy but I'll tell you why...

- They've made some truly awesome games
- They've pumped masses of their own money into a means of rewarding developers and not publishers (Steam)
- They've provided a host of anti-piracy/community contact/auto-update tools completely free of charge (Steamworks)
- They've taken on great mod teams, employed them, and pushed the products further
- They've provided loads of extra content for existing products without charging a dime
- They've taken on graduate students, provided them with jobs and taken their concepts on to be award winning products like Portal
- They've even embraced the Indie scene and offered titles they deem worthwhile a spot in their catalogue.

They made a shitload off Half-Life 1 but they shut themselves away to work on a truly worthy sequel, and risked even more on a potentially risky system to empower developers of all sizes.

So, if there's any one company out there that you shouldn't be whinging at, it's Valve. They are a true credit to the industry and whinging because they didn't like your game is pure sour grapes. Plain and simple.

I've never been a fan of petitions, especially when it doesn't concern serious issues of human rights or matters of legality, and in this case it really does boil down to an Indie developer stamping their feet and screaming like a little child that didn't get the choclate bar they wanted. Amongst all their good work there is still the core truth that Valve are a company looking to make money. Going beyond that, they are people looking to keep a roof over their heads and food in front of their family. If they don't think a game is capable of providing the revenue required of this, or consider it's image to be potentially detrimental to the levels of quality they desire, that does not make them a demon.

They didn't like your game and they're perfectly entitled to. There is no issue here. There is no injustice. I completely fail to see any point in this petition whatsoever - other than the fellas behind Mode7 games being bitter and immature.

[Oddbob]

Someone should ask Jon Mak about how he got onto Steam with Everyday Shooter.  Maybe he'd have some insights as to the selection process.

Having been chatting to someone before, during and after the "getting on Steam" process recently, I feel pretty confident in my earlier judgement on the criteria.

From the moment I clapped eyes on the game, I didn't doubt for a second that it would make it onto Steam. Colour me unsurprised when it was released a week or so ago on there because to my eyes, looking at where Steam is positioned and aimed at by Valve, it's the perfect fit.

I really don't think there is a big mystical checklist in the sky that they could publish for folks and I don't see why they should have one. As far as I can see, the only thing it would achieve is to validate some needy folk when they get ignored/declined and give them something else to whinge about. You can bet your life that there'd be "x clause is totally unfair, man" petitions if this one is anything to go by.

Sometimes you've just got to accept that you might like your game, some other people might like your game, but it might not be what someone else wants. And they're entitled to not want it for whatever reason they choose. You can't bend the world around you.

Well as I said, it's primarily an interface issue.  If one could guarantee searching would find users exactly what they were looking for, it wouldn't be an issue.

I speak for myself alone here, obviously but I don't see it as just that sort of issue. Tenuous analogy ahoy here, so bear with me - I see it more in the "sometimes you want to go the supermarket and sometimes you just want to go to the grocers" kinda way. Steam falls into the "grocers" camp for me. I go there for a certain service, which they provide well and tend not to deviate greatly from. Turning it into a supermarket no matter how well the aisles are labelled and how easy it is to find your way around loses some of its draw.

And that, I think, was the shittest analogy I've ever made. Sorry about that.

They're under no obligation to support indie games. That's a given. Still, we can always take the opportunity to politely suggest that they do so, because this is the internet and, dammit, we are going to say things.

I agree with this. The key thing with this petition is it isn't "hey Valve, there's some cool guys out there making funky games" it's "get OUR games onto Steam. Love, The Developers". To which, if I were Valve, my response would be simply "oh shut it and fuck off". Whereas the former scenario, I might perk up an ear.

It would be cool to see a wider range of Indie games on there, it'd be more cool if someone tried to set up a meeting to chat with someone from Valve, show them stuff, say why they think it would be cool etc... they might never listen or follow up on anything, but it'd have a damn sight more chance than this.

[William Broom]

Does anyone else think it's kind of self-defeating to present the petition to Valve dressed as a tomato?

[ghosted]

Does anyone else think it's kind of self-defeating to present the petition to Valve dressed as a tomato?

It's self-defeating to create a petition in itself, regardless of delivery. If Valve weren't interested before, they sure won't be now. Dress up like a headcrab and gift-wrap the petition with hand-peeled donut husks, I suspect Valve will still tell them to shove it up their black mesa (with all due respect).